246 - The Joy of Everyday Life w/Katie O'Farrell

Today we're joined by photographer and poet Katie O'Farrell, a dear friend of mine. In this expansive conversation, we talk about how the practice of finding joy in everyday life requires curiosity and bravery and how it can bring richness and excitement to our lives. 

We explore how we can transform our relationships with others and ourselves when we allow ourselves to be vulnerable. 

We also talk about the importance of surrending control and allowing life's flow to experience personal growth. 

Connect with Katie on Instagram 

Weekly stories by email from Bonnie’s HERE

Connect with Bonnie: Instagram, Email (hello@bonnieweeks.com), Website
Listen to Bonnie's other podcast Sexy Sunday HERE

The music for this episode is Threads by The Light Meeting.
Produced by: Grey Tanner

Transcript

Bonnie (00:04.948)
Welcome to the podcast today, my loves.

I have a special guest with me today and it is very exciting to me when I see that on my calendar, I'm like, who am I podcasting with today? And when the person that shows up that I'm podcasting with and that that gets to be my life, that I get to have conversations that make me feel expansive, that make me feel free, that bring a sort of awareness.

and attention to the details in my life that make me feel excited that I get the opportunity to be alive. Like, can we ask for anything better? And the richness that I feel in the people that are part of my life that I get to learn from and interact with and the blessing.

Like that's the word I want to say, the blessing of that and the way that I feel like I'm blessed in my life and that I'm blessing myself by like interacting with amazing humans. So that is today. That is today. And I have somebody who I consider a dear friend in the midst of years and random hellos that we are able to give each other.

And today on the podcast, have Katie O 'Farrell. Thank you for being here, Katie.

Katie O'Farrell (01:41.065)
Thank you.

I I would make it into actually talking before I started crying.

Bonnie (01:48.837)
You

Katie O'Farrell (01:50.547)
Thought your introduction was so beautiful and moving.

Bonnie (01:56.078)
We have met a while ago and I want to give just a little bit of background here. We met four years ago, almost exactly four years ago. And in the midst of, and actually I think this is beautiful, in the midst of everything being shut down because of COVID, that's how we met is during that time and to find connection during that time and as hard as all that time was and still like when I am out somewhere in public or

at out dancing or there's like a concert and I just look around at the amount of people around me and think, we didn't do this? Like what? Like we didn't gather, we didn't like sit in circles together. We were so apart and that's wild to me that we did that. And it also opened up opportunities for something like this. Like would we have known each other?

and the ways of I took a kindred meditation training, which you were a part of and helping facilitate and participate in different sorts of ways. And that's how we met. And so here we are four years later and having this connection and like the gift of that to you and the beauty that's in some of those things that are unexpected and tricky and hard and not all things that we would want to repeat, but the gifts that also still come from those places. So I'm grateful for that.

So we met in Kindred, which is a partner, we'll recap as a partner moving meditation. There's like, that's like a whole thing we can, certainly we can talk about Kindred and I think there's a lot of beautiful things you could probably share about your experience of learning and like about yourself and everything in that, but that's how we met. And I guess I want to start though with a story that,

that you shared on social media and sparked again for me this desire to bring you on the podcast and have this conversation. Because as the intro to this podcast, I define yoga as a practice of paying attention. And so yoga looks like everything. Yoga looks like every moment of our lives. It's not just a shape.

Bonnie (04:20.568)
that we make with our body is not just a word that we might say, it's what we take with us everywhere. And I feel like you embody that in the way that you try to pay attention and you're a mother and you're an artist and the way that you share, it does something to me where I pause and I appreciate and I

just really grateful for that.

Bonnie (04:54.254)
Yeah, absolutely. So I want to talk about pedaling yourself. And pedal, not as in like pedal, like to sell something, you know, like selling wares or pedal, like you would pedal a bike. That's also not what I'm talking about. I'm about pedaling like flower petals. And on social media, you had shared this story and you were laughing at yourself.

and you shared this video and you had talked about your grandma and saying that your grandma would be proud of you, correct? I'm saying this right?

Katie O'Farrell (05:31.689)
I think so, yeah. I'm remembering the story now.

Bonnie (05:32.812)
Yeah, yeah. And you were standing next to this tree and you were pulling petals off or like you're standing next to some flowers and pulling petals off and you were laughing yourself because you were stuffing them down your shirt.

Katie O'Farrell (05:43.613)
you

Katie O'Farrell (05:50.289)
Yeah.

Bonnie (05:50.794)
Wait, why, I have question. Like, why would your grandma be delighted by

Katie O'Farrell (05:56.233)
that's, it's just kind of how she lived her life. Like she was just kind of spunked. Like she would do something like that. I feel like she was a source of surprise and delight in a lot of moments in my

Bonnie (06:13.666)
I feel like that's such permission that she gave herself.

Like, I mean, nobody, there's not a lot of us, I think, walking around and just pulling off pedals and shoving them in our shirts. I think I'll just store this in my left bra side.

Katie O'Farrell (06:26.313)
She would take me out in the land behind her house and we would find lady slippers. They're these orchids that are native to New England, but they're very, very rare. And so you don't see them very often, but we would kind of find one or two sometimes. Some years none, but we'd always go searching for them in the woods. I loved that. And then you can't touch them. You're just like...

Bonnie (06:51.625)
What would you do with them once you found?

Katie O'Farrell (06:55.847)
look at them and enjoy them. It was just more the discovery of like knowing that that beauty was there. So it's just the exploration.

Bonnie (07:07.468)
Okay. I love this. Okay. We're to loop back to that because I want to like finish. I feel like I need to wrap this story of the flower petals though. is that you had this moment and then we're going to jump to, to your grandma. you this moment where you're laughing so hard. You're like delighted by yourself. I love that you were, you were delighted by yourself. You're like, I am doing this. And then you shared it. I'm like, this is exactly what I want. This is what I want for my life to be

Katie O'Farrell (07:12.115)
Yeah.

Bonnie (07:34.298)
I feel entertained, I feel delighted, I am pleased with where my life is. That does not mean that life is not hard. It does not mean that it's like not working and that we're not doing things, but that we're also looking for ways of our own joy, like, and that exists in it still. You said in that, you said, it made me laugh and I loved myself.

Bonnie (08:02.591)
and you're stuffing the plow petals in your shirt and you're that it makes you laugh and that you love yourself.

Bonnie (08:15.414)
And I just paused and I watched that video again and the capacity to look at yourself, to look at your joy and the appreciation you have for your ability to see it and to embrace it and to love yourself in it and how difficult that can be for all of us and sometimes more difficult for others.

and your willingness to lean into that and to say it and to own it, to love yourself and to laugh with that and to shove petals in your shirt.

Katie O'Farrell (08:58.281)
Yeah, I think one of the ways that I've used Instagram from the beginning, because I started as a photographer, so I've been using it since it existed and it used to just be me and five of my friends, was always as this place to put small beautiful things in my life so I didn't miss the beauty of my own life because it's so easy to get caught up in all the things we're supposed to do and all the busyness of life.

And I just think my biggest fear in life is to miss my own life. And so as a practice in stepping into making sure that like each day there's moments that I see what's in front of me. I see how much beauty is there that I'm in other moments missing. And so as long as I catch at least and document one of those moments, I feel like now I have this diary where I can look back at those moments and be like, my God, look at the richness that's like unfolding in my life.

especially in the hard moments, especially when it's, you're not in those moments and you're out of it. It just like acts as this reminder to bring me back. Yeah. So that's what that is a lot for me.

Bonnie (10:04.172)
Yeah, Well, I have, like you've written this, this is the thing you said, that you're determined to not miss the beauty of your own life.

Bonnie (10:21.26)
You know, I think I started using Instagram and didn't realize the gift of the documenting and the sharing. And so I think I'd love that as a crossover to where that is like the purpose and some of the purpose that you have used in social media to say, okay, this is a visual thing. This is something I make. Like you make the picture, you make

the words, like you put them together in a way and to share them and it's an action so you have to do it and it's a visual thing so you can see that you've done it in those sorts of ways too so you're not missing it and there's an intentionality to that and I think it's can be easily overlooked that it does require a sort of effort to see or to pay attention and it's not gonna like it does take a practice yeah.

Katie O'Farrell (11:13.961)
Yeah, I think it definitely takes a practice. And I think the fact that I've been a photographer since I was like a teenager helped because I already had a practice of like going out to the world and being like, what beautiful, interesting things are available for me to interact with and capture. So I think that started the practice for me. And I'm also a writer. So then you're, also now looking for things in like that format of like, what can I explore and what's, what can I say?

with coming to me. So I think the two of those have kind of built the foundation of that practice for me, particularly being a photographer. Because I was, you know, I trained myself to go look for beauty from a young age. And I remember having a friend, this is years ago, maybe in my early 20s. And she photographed things just like in her life, it would just like be something in her home or something in her yard or just like around where she lived.

She was posting this just like gorgeous vignettes of her life. And I was just like, I want my life to be that beautiful. want to like, I wish I could create images from my life like that, looked that beautiful, but my life doesn't look that pretty. And a picture is what I was kind of like telling myself at the time. And so was like, but what if that's actually not true? And I'm just like not seeing it. And so I started like really an earnest to walk around and not just like go out and leave and go find something beautiful to photograph, but

Bonnie (12:30.242)
Mm

Katie O'Farrell (12:42.557)
to look deeper into my own life, into my own living space, into my own moments and photograph from that place because I wanted to know is my life that beautiful and I'm just not seeing

Bonnie (12:58.924)
That is a full stop for a second.

Bonnie (13:06.848)
Is my life that beautiful? I'm just not seeing it. So.

Bonnie (13:13.568)
What is it? Do people ask you how to find beauty? How often do people ask you about, how do I see the beauty?

Katie O'Farrell (13:25.641)
Sometimes, but sometimes people don't, sometimes people, they'll see it or they see they'll work and they'll be moved from it, but they don't always ask questions.

they'll notice it. But I think there's something really beautiful and powerful about asking beautiful questions. And I heard a quote somewhere, someone talked about how like the quality of our life is determined by the quality of the questions you ask. And so I really love the invitation of the question

Bonnie (13:53.877)
Mmm.

Katie O'Farrell (14:02.323)
but then lot of people aren't practiced at asking beautiful questions.

Bonnie (14:08.899)
Yeah.

Hmm.

Katie O'Farrell (14:13.307)
Sometimes.

Bonnie (14:16.963)
Yeah.

Okay, let's go to your grandma. I want to go to grandma. What's your grandma's name? Helen. Let's talk about Helen for a second.

Katie O'Farrell (14:24.819)
Helen.

Bonnie (14:31.15)
I love that Helen, it seems like, was a part of somebody who gave you permission to have a sense of discovery, yeah?

Katie O'Farrell (14:43.315)
Yeah, yeah, she was fun.

Bonnie (14:47.842)
How did?

Bonnie (14:52.788)
How did Helen, I just think of, know, if she was your grandparent, this is an older generation. This is somebody who has been through some other lived things that in different eras that we have not as as younger people. And so.

Katie O'Farrell (15:05.077)
yes.

Bonnie (15:10.76)
reflecting on your grandma's, you have to speak for her in this way as your reflection and observation of her, but what gave her the capacity or how did she give herself the permission to discover?

Katie O'Farrell (15:30.567)
Good question.

Katie O'Farrell (15:35.911)
I think there was something like.

Katie O'Farrell (15:43.362)
I think it was for sure something in the synergy of the relationship between like child and grandmother that like came alive for her. That she had like there's something about the quality of a child that allows certain permission and brings certain things alive. Like I know when I go to the grocery store with the children, my kids, I act ridiculous and like I'll be, good song comes on. I'm like dancing in the aisles and being like crazy with them.

And then when I go to the grocery store alone, that's like a good song will come on. And it takes me so much more work to do the same thing and dance in the aisle. Cause I'm like, my body wants to dance to the song in the aisle. Can I do it alone? Because there's something about the energy and the permission of like the child that gives that permission. And so I think there's some of that. And then the role of the grandmother where you, you're,

Bonnie (16:18.485)
Mmmmm

Bonnie (16:25.262)
Totally.

Katie O'Farrell (16:37.063)
you're not the same kind of authority figure as a mother. So you're not really responsible for all those things that a mother is responsible for. So you get to be more playful. You get to like fill in this other space of caretaking and tending, but without such a burden. And I think in the freedom of that, it was like a really sweet spot where both of us came together.

Bonnie (16:57.292)
Yeah. I mean, your grandma, like as you're like talking about walking in the woods and her stuffing petals in her shirt, I'm, I'm like, your grandma sounds like she would be a friend with Mary Oliver. So, and you as a writer, I'm like, well, this is a dissenting line. So this makes sense to me.

Katie O'Farrell (17:12.937)
She grew up on a farm, so she grew up very much in that aspect. So there's a certain closeness to nature that she grew up with.

Bonnie (17:28.002)
Well, and you definitely, I love your images. I love that you found this beauty in everyday life and the way that nature is brought so much into that. mean, again, petals in your bra and the rest of that story that you shared later about stuffing the petals in your shirt was that you forgot about them.

Katie O'Farrell (17:44.777)
Yes. So I was at a friend's house later and I went to change into a bathing suit because we were going to the beach and they all just, little flowers were all, the petals were all kind of dry down. were like all over the floor.

Katie O'Farrell (18:04.187)
And it was like, I'd already forgotten the joy. Like you just move in and out of like, I just feel like we move in and out of remembering and appreciation. Like one moment you're just like, look at this beautiful rose. At the next minute, you're like, I have to do a lot of laundry today. And then the groceries need to be ordered and delivered. You know, like there's just so many things that take our attention. But there was like that reminder as it came back to the attention, my attention came back to the joy of like just how silly that choice was.

Bonnie (18:15.246)
Mm -hmm.

Katie O'Farrell (18:33.789)
And that we can make choices in our days that affect how we feel just by kind of being ridiculous or being a little silly or just, like, it's not like I made time in my day to do something for myself and like a self care kind of way. It was just like, it was a decision. Like every moment we have all these choices in front of us. And most of the times we just like see one or two choices, but there's like always this whole range of an infinite number of choices in front of

Bonnie (18:44.44)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Katie O'Farrell (19:03.761)
And sometimes when we do something weird or strange or different, it disrupts like our patterns and it invites joy because there's something unexpected sometimes that joy kind of has this element of surprise in

Bonnie (19:11.672)
Mm -hmm.

Bonnie (19:16.632)
Yeah. And in the pedaling of the floor, was then a second joy.

I mean, then you're like, okay, now we're gonna clean this up. But like, also this is hilarious.

Katie O'Farrell (19:32.423)
Yeah, but it's like, I like the repercussions of your choices, you know, it's like one joyful choice led to a repercussion of another echo of

Bonnie (19:41.986)
Yeah, yeah. And also a form of delight too, because if your friend walks in and is like, why, what has happened? And you're like, don't worry, it's just petals in my bra. So like, and then now we're here in this podcast where people are gonna, you know, are listening to this conversation and maybe this is the revolution of stuffing petals in your shirt.

Katie O'Farrell (20:00.124)
You

I think there's just, I think there's something to be said for doing unusual, like tiny, like little unusual things that you don't normally do. So if your normal procedure is to like, you know, engage a certain way, anytime you break that habit, the pattern, you disrupt kind of the normal way you do something. It can be really, really small. Like sometimes when I'm walking, like, I don't know, I was walking in the city the other day and I just, there were these like hedges and I just was like running my hand up and along the hedges and I was like, hi friends.

And it was just like a small thing. wasn't just like this big deal, but it just shifted my attention to like these things that were growing in the city and very alive. just, it's like, it drew my attention to the beauty of what was around me, but it was just like a small gesture, you know? So I'm kind of into exploring what are the small gestures in the places in my life that I can invite this delight into my life by just doing something different or strange or a little weird.

Bonnie (20:45.204)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Bonnie (20:59.798)
Yes. Ooh, love this. And I love it because if I was walking on the other sidewalk and looked across at you and watched you as a grown ass woman, zooming your hand over the top of these bushes, I would have been delighted. Like that would have been, I'm like, I can see what's happening there. Like I know what's happening over there. And so the ripple effect of that too, where other people are watching, which is also, think part of why it's sometimes hard, like why it's hard to

Katie O'Farrell (21:27.847)
Yeah, true.

Bonnie (21:29.548)
ourselves permission because I like the grocery store example. Like if you're with kids, you might give yourself different permission than with your, with adults and how you act. then, and then versus just alone by yourself. And I think that's a really good, like, that's a really good example of a way to put it. Like if you go to the grocery store with your best friend versus with your kid versus by yourself, like the experience is going to be different and the permission we have to give ourselves

be like to do the thing that we want to do regardless of who's with

Katie O'Farrell (22:07.593)
Yeah, it is. It's definitely a practice. Yeah. I feel like the more I practice, the more brave I get, the more it doesn't matter to me if someone thinks I'm weird because I also see the other side of it. I see the person who's like saw the joy across the street and was like, I it's like, gives permission to other people. Like I can do weird things. I can do that. Like that wasn't, it wasn't that strange. It was just touching a plant, you know? So it's like, it's interesting how these things can feel so big in us.

Bonnie (22:07.938)
Like it's hard.

Bonnie (22:11.81)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Katie O'Farrell (22:37.48)
but they're not really that threatening or stranger weird, really. You know, it's just like that internal voice that's like, keep me safe, you know, kind of stay within the confines of what our culture considers safe. And that comes from a a really deeply real place because it's only a small part of history and an only small sector of the world where it really does feel like your self -expression to be as weird as you want is safe and not always, and not in all situations and not in all environments.

The fears that our bodies know about this and the somatic experience of like, why that right, you know, create such a response in our body of like, is this safe? I, can I have this expression of myself or not? Is, know, kind of tying back to my grandmother and our ancestors and what was safe for them and what they were allowed and, kind of going back to how women in particular are and have been, you know, have found safety.

in culture by kind of fitting in and how when they didn't, you know, there was often a negative consequence to that. So I think it's learning this in real time, what is actually a threat and what is just fear. And in this environment, can my body actually gauge the difference between like, actually, there's really no threat for me to like, I also love putting my face into like flowering bushes and just like.

Bonnie (23:55.906)
Mmm.

Katie O'Farrell (24:05.801)
when there's just like all the flowers are there. I just wanna like put my whole face in there. And there's never been a time when I've gone to do that where there's been any threat or danger of me, know, kind of socially being outcast for doing that. It's just my own internal sense of like, is this embarrassing or is this okay? But your body, I kind of learn what that, what is real threat and what is actually just fear.

Bonnie (24:21.644)
Yeah.

Bonnie (24:29.07)
I did put my face in flowers this season and it was so delightful.

I was like, this is like surprisingly soft. It's sensual as fuck. It's like, I'm like, okay. Like here we are, here we are in these flowers. Yeah. But I like this conversation of safety though, especially if we're going to look at joy and beauty and if we're going to give ourselves permission and safety in like kind of an expansive way of, is it literally body safe to be here, to make this choice and to do whatever it is, right?

Katie O'Farrell (24:47.283)
Smells so good. It's a good experience.

Bonnie (25:09.794)
And that answer can vary depending on person, place, et cetera. And also just perhaps an internal fear of belonging or of, is this the right thing? Like the quote unquote right in order to show up with these people or in this moment. But also, I love to take morning walks.

And there's so often that I'm all by myself, there's nobody else on the street. And maybe somebody's looking out their window and like sees me walking, I don't know. But like I'm on the street by myself and even the permission that we can give ourselves to do weird things while you're on a walk all by yourself and nobody else is around that you can see at least. I think it's even in those moments where like, okay, I'm safe to like do a weird body shake or

do something different with my arms or take a moment and stand in the middle of the road that no cars are driving on and close my eyes and like do like a really loud sigh or whatever it is. You're like, Like I think it can start in those moments. And I think for me that's, I think it's in the solo time.

Like giving myself, I think I found for myself that it's in the solo experience when I'm all alone, that I give myself permission to try on some of the things that can be really helpful. Then if I am out somewhere more in public where I'm like, I, I know how to hold this, this sigh. If I like sigh like this, I'm in my house where nobody else can see or hear me. Then I can do this on the street where nobody is there, but maybe they see me, but like, I'm okay. Like I could sigh. and that, that I think has been.

That's like a helpful way to build the trust in myself that I'm going to be okay for doing something that I don't see other people doing.

Bonnie (27:06.998)
Is there a way that you feel like you can regulate your nervous system in your choices and being in the practices you have for a long time, like your stuffing petals in your bra. like, like it being in this practice for a minute where you're trying to be attentive to beauty and giving yourself permission to do something that breaks the habitual pattern that you've done. Like, is there a practice or an attention that you can give that's

that kind of helps guide you in that place that builds your own safety and trust.

Katie O'Farrell (27:40.157)
think it leads off of, builds off of what you're saying, which is doing it in spaces where you're by yourself. would say the majority of the time I'm doing these things, I actually am by myself. I'll be in my garden or my backyard or I'm in my own space. I walk in the woods alone. So the majority of the times I'm not in public, so I don't have to put on that extra layer of like, is anybody watching me be strange, slightly weird? So I think that as a practice is then you don't have to take off that extra pressure and then you don't have to worry about.

what anybody else thinks of you, you only have to worry about your own inner voice of like what your inner voice is saying, like is this acceptable or not? And that's starting with the conversation between you and you and developing that relationship between what you're allowed to do and not allowed to do. If you start from there before you add on the extra layers of social pressure.

Bonnie (28:31.03)
Yes. Okay. how about, okay, let's go to the photographer side because being a photographer versus being the subject of photography are also very different things, especially when it's not self portraiture. So I'd love to hear like, what is your experience like currently if you had to be the subject of another photographer and it was you, how do you drop yourself into like an embodiment of safety and play?

Katie O'Farrell (28:59.913)
Cool.

Bonnie (29:01.098)
Enjoy when you're in front of the camera and you're seen.

Katie O'Farrell (29:04.969)
That's a really good question. Okay.

That's a good one because I don't do that that much. There's other ways like I read poetry or there's other ways where I'm seen more in other facilitating meditation, things like that. But it's particularly vulnerable to sit in front of a camera because you don't always have something to do. Like when you're reading a poem, you're like, here's the thing I've prepared to do. And so you're just kind of being. And so sometimes you can really rely on the person who's photographing you in an ideal situation.

they are inclined to pull you into experiencing yourself by beautiful questions or inviting you into the space with their presence and their body to varying degrees. But I think for me personally, like my side of it is like how much in my body can I stay? And that just comes back to like sensation. So when I feel like I'm kind of like leaving my body a little bit or not being present or like too much in my head or my thoughts, or I'm like, what is my...

The wind's blowing. What do my bangs look like? Like, did you just move into like this, you know, these thoughts and, but then I try to come back down and this is kind of a strategy for a lot of different things in my life, but the come back down to like the physical sensation of my body, like, can I like feeling the ground under my feet or if I'm sitting or just like feeling the ground feeling like I will often put my hands on my legs and just feel my legs with my hands. And there's something just like really sturdy about that feeling.

particularly when I'm sitting and just like I come back to like the sensation of my body. I also like to really pay attention to like my heart beat because I can feel like certain times when I get very excited or nervous my heart will race or be... I used to notice this in like public speaking before speaking about something. My heart would start beating like really fast and most people would say, well that's because you're nervous your heart's beating really fast but also when you get excited your heart's beating really fast too.

Katie O'Farrell (31:07.897)
an anticipation of something. And so I kind of love this reframe of like when I feel my heart beating really fast, it like points me in this direction of like something's important to me. So to be excited or nervous about something points me to the place in myself where I can notice, this is important, this matters. And from that place, I can kind of let go of the difference between being nervous and excited.

because really the only difference is like kind of, it's a, like a kind of belief of whether you feel like it's going to go well or not go well, really. So I can let go of like, is it going to go well or not go well? And just like kind of sink into the like, it's important. It's important to me and just like come from that place, being oriented to the outcome. So.

Bonnie (32:04.311)
I love that. I also love this idea of a photographer helping you experience yourself and that as I'm like, that's gonna, that's a whole tagline. And like, and specifically I think about my experiences of helping direct people with nude photography. And if you take off all your clothes and let yourself be photographed, not as boudoir, not as

Katie O'Farrell (32:14.312)
Hahahaha

Bonnie (32:30.424)
trying to turn anybody on, but literally just to be seen. I think this whole conversation of like being seen or seeing and the way you are then you have to, you get to see your pictures. So you let yourself be seen and then you have to see yourself. And so you get both sides of that when you participate in photography and it's another layer if you take off all your clothes.

But in my experience with that, and I had a whole project this past year for my 40th and the project called Naked 40. I invited 40 friends to get naked in front of the camera. And I had done a project last March called Naked March, where as for my own project, I told my lover who's a photographer, was like, hey, the whole month of March, I'm gonna just make naked pictures every day. Like it's nude photography day. I was like, you can join me if you want. And he was like, yes, I will join you.

of the whole month of March of 2023, there was like three days that I did my own self -portrait on my phone. But otherwise he bust out the camera and we did like, oh my gosh, like the most random things, Katie. there was, like some of it was like super sexy. I'm like, okay, I'll put on all the other straps. Will I do the light? I'll like do, you know, whatever, do the things. And other ones that were, it's March outside. So there's like mostly

Katie O'Farrell (33:37.097)
You

Bonnie (33:51.642)
There's not a lot of green growth, but there was outside ones. The very end one was in a tub, a friend's outdoor black tub, and the camellias were blooming. So we filled the water up just a little bit and put these pink camellias in it. And then I climbed in the tub and there's pictures from overhead. Then there was one where I was like, what if I just take off my shirt and put my underwear and I just soften a jar of peanut butter?

and I shove my whole hand in the peanut butter and then like play with it. There may have also been one where like we were going to bed one night. I was like, my gosh, we have to go make a picture. And it's midnight. And I thought, okay, actually, what if we just go out on the street in my suburban neighborhood at midnight? Like people are in bed, right? People's like door cameras won't reach the street, right? And

Katie O'Farrell (34:45.545)
you

Bonnie (34:50.638)
I have my slippers on, I have a beanie on, and I have my robe on, and I'm standing in the middle of the street, and I did not take him off. I just totally flashed the camera. I just flashed him in the middle of the street. So it was so playful, and on the daily to be like day eight into it, I was like, oh my gosh, we have 30 days to do this, or 31. So I'm like, we have a whole month. So I had done that last March.

which then ended up leading into this idea for Naked 40 for my 40th birthday. And where it was really a celebration for each person. I'm like, if I am celebrating myself, it's really because I get to celebrate the people that are part of my life. And so I kind of put out an invitation to as many people as we could fit in. And I was like, no, we're going to get 40. Like we're not going to, like we will get to 40. Ultimately, we could just, you know, this can be a continuation forever and ever.

but over a series of like two and a half months and nine different sessions and time blocked people to come and we set up, know, kind of experiences for people to have their solo experience. I was the director of it and my lover was a photographer and then these people came and I mean, 30 of them out of the 40 had never had nude photographs made. And there was a lot of women.

some non -binary folks like 12 men. So there's like a widespread of people and bodies and experiences and each of those sessions was individual. And so this idea of like the beauty that I get to see in people, like I just, I just love it. And I know you, you get it as a photographer, like you get to see it, you get to see it differently behind the camera. And when you see people like landed themselves and

the way that you're saying it, a photographer to help you experience yourself. I'm like, that's what I want to do. I'm like, I even told my lover the other day, was like, in my other life, I'm a photographer of like people's to get naked and be in their bodies. And, and maybe that iteration of myself is coming, but I love that part and the, and the growth that I've had in my own life to like get in front of the camera and to take off the layers, the vulnerability of it and

Bonnie (37:14.143)
in a way that I could bring my movement teacher part. And even for you for kindred, which people are like, I don't even know what you're talking about kindred, but kindred where you're helping people move and be in their bodies through movement and intentional thought and awareness of self.

bring that out and just to help people like guide people. like, just reach your hand up here. Now twist your fingers, whatever it is. And then people be like naked sitting there. And then all of a they're like, wow, yeah, this feels really good. So I'm like, we'd be like, I'm like, we have a little stretch session. I don't tell them that. I'm like, you don't have to know what to do. I'm going to help you know what to do with your hands. And they're like, thank you. Right. And so it really is true, like having a guide in that. And this is like

Katie O'Farrell (37:47.13)
Yeah, they're bringing back into your body.

Bonnie (38:02.719)
interesting conversation of like photography and all of this, it's...

It's part of the conversation of being willing to be seen. But I think is this conversation is saying yes to yourself is giving yourself permission is like seeing yourself and other people might see you and being like, how can I own this and celebrate this? Even if it's weird, even if it's looks different than something else that I've done before or the, or different than the person next to me. And there's so much beauty.

There's so much beauty in it all. And I learned so much, know, in my own photo sessions. It actually is like one of my favorite practices to be like, and just yesterday, and I did a session just yesterday with my lover, it was a totally impromptu, and it seriously has been months and months and months. And so I love that this conversation is happening, because it's like, okay.

Katie O'Farrell (39:03.677)
I think to find beauty and joy, like there has to be this like exploration. There has to be like a willingness to play and to kind of enter into that, that playful state. And I think when you're talking about being seen and how we started to kind of drop the things that we've put up, these shields and these barriers we've put up to kind of protect ourselves from being seen. It, for me, it was

It really started with this exploration of my relationship, my friendship with myself and how like I engage with like when no one's there and I'm just talking to myself and I would notice that the way I spoke to myself is not the same way that I spoke to my friends and that my voice would be harsher towards myself than it was to other people. And so over

you know, the last two decades really, I've like been in this devoted relationship, this devotion to friendship with myself. Friendship is just like, really like feels like the theme of my life. Friendship within, starting from that place, but also friendship with people and life around me because I feel all the ways that that's supported my growth and my change and.

My ability to be seen, my ability to show up in those vulnerable ways has definitely been impacted by all the beautiful humans I've met who are like, I want to see

So, but it did really start with this like devotion to self, to self friendship and where all the places that I find that I'm hard or harsh to myself or talk to myself in ways that are not generous and how can I be generous with myself and really practice from that place pretty diligently.

Bonnie (41:05.198)
Do you remember when you decided to be a friend to yourself? Was that something that you found along the way or was there a specific moment that you made it really conscious?

Katie O'Farrell (41:21.693)
Yeah, I remember it being a really specific moment and it's kind of tied to this kindred practice. was kind of the first time, was before kindred was kind of the iteration of the practice it was. But it was kind of the first time I went to like a retreat and was emerged into this, in this space of being invited into that relationship with myself and others.

It just felt like so deeply supportive of.

Katie O'Farrell (41:57.897)
of kind of this like journey home to myself to realizing like, okay, there's here's all the places I've kind of abandoned myself. And I've gone in all these different directions where I've been expected to go or was just out of college. I was just starting my photography business. And here's all the places that I've kind of veered off my own track a little bit. And I got to experience this like kind of like coming home to myself that's deeply tied to this kindred practice. And then the baby

stage forms that it was in at that time and touched me really deeply. And when I left that space, cause it was like, you know, three days or something, and you leave that space and you're like, now how do I navigate my world? And so I think it was kind of figuring out, what do I do now with myself and how do I, now that I'm aware of all this, I can't go back to living the life the way I was living because now it just feels so,

out of alignment, just feels like I can feel how wrong certain things feel and I can't do them anymore. So how do I move forward? And so part of that was this looking at my life as like, I'm kind of making the unfolding of my life, the priority of my life. So my relationship to myself and the quality of my life became my main priority. And then everything else had to come under that. So my photography business had to like take a step down and all the other things had to like get in line underneath

And that felt really important. I also had discovered around that same time the Irish poet John O'Donoghue, whose work I love and he talks a lot about friendship and he just felt like a kindred soul to me. yeah, his writing and some of his interviews and hearing his voice influenced me a lot in that time of developing friendship.

Bonnie (43:44.952)
Do you have a favorite poem? I mean, there can be multiple favorites, but like a favorite poem of his.

Katie O'Farrell (43:51.783)
Gosh, I'm not really good at picking favorites. It's like my least favorite thing to do. But there is one quote, just like a one line, two line quote that I love of his, is that it's hanging on my wall in the room I'm in actually. I would love to live like a river flows carried by the surprise of its unfolding.

Bonnie (43:54.808)
That's fair.

Katie O'Farrell (44:13.501)
I would love to live like a river flows, carried by the surprise of its own unfolding.

Bonnie (44:27.566)
I love river analogies. I love water analogies. I love the invitation to be water. And meditation teacher Sarah Blondin, the way that she has a meditation I listened to that she talks about you can be the rock at the bottom of the river. And sometimes we are and where you can be the water flowing around it.

And sometimes we're somewhere in between. Just the ability to move and to flow and it is a mystery. And I love that water is tears and it's soft. And then it's like carving stone.

Katie O'Farrell (45:17.897)
Yes, that's so wild to me.

Bonnie (45:21.506)
So all of it.

Katie O'Farrell (45:29.125)
I love water.

Bonnie (45:29.252)
When you came back from Kindred and when you felt like this coming home to yourself and then you're reprioritizing your life and readjusting it, what was something that you had to say no to? That's like not your photography, but something that you had to say no to to create more yes room.

Katie O'Farrell (45:55.795)
Good question.

Katie O'Farrell (46:00.467)
think like, what's coming to me is less of like a physical, like, no, I can't show up for my family or no, I can't show up in this kind of way for a friend. was more like an internal reprocessing of how I thought about things. So I kind of had to like say no to kind of the, old hierarchies that my brain would try to impose on things, like a false sense of urgency. Quite often things would be like, this is so urgent. This email is so urgent. This, I have to get back to this response. And like the whole body would go into this like fight or flight response. And I'd be

I actually, this is just an email. It's not even like a major problem. It's just like a small conflict you need to solve. And so a lot of that is just like internal things that I'd have to say no to like, no, we're not gonna, we're not gonna worry about that. A lot of no to worry because I found so many things that I would worry about. And I had to like, I was inspired by this man, Bob Goff. Do you know Bob

Bonnie (46:58.05)
I

Katie O'Farrell (46:58.561)
He hasn't written a book called Love Does. He's one of the most magnanimous humans I've ever met. I've had the good fortune to meet him a few times. But he talked about how every Thursday he quit something in his life. So sometimes it was something small. One Thursday he quit his law firm. Like they were crazy things, small things. And I loved the permission slip of this to just think once a week, like, what's not serving me and what can I quit? And so I decided to quit worrying.

And I was like, I'm just going to give up wearing. And then I tell people and they'd be like, good luck with that. How's that going? And it's interesting because does it mean I never worry? No. But ever since that day, when I do worry, I'm aware of this sense of like, well, I quit this because for a reason, because I believe that worry is not actually serving me in any good way. It's not going to prevent something from happening that I don't want to happen. It's only going to like use my imagination to build an image of a future that I don't really want. just imagining.

but I don't want to happen that outcome. So it's just kind of a waste of my energy and resource. So when it's happening, I'm aware, this is the thing I'm doing that I don't really want to do. So let's do something else. And so I come out of worry much quicker because I remind myself that I quit it. So it doesn't mean I never do it, but it does mean I don't spend a lot of time there because I kind of catch myself and say, we give the shit up. Like we don't do that.

Bonnie (48:10.881)
Hmm.

Bonnie (48:20.972)
Yeah, yeah, you pay attention to

Katie O'Farrell (48:24.593)
Yeah, yeah.

Bonnie (48:26.744)
Yeah. my gosh, I love this. And also like the way that, you know, if we're going to talk about breaking our habits or the habitual patterns just for the hell of it, just because we can, just because they're not, there's something that can be played with and disrupted and explored.

that worry as like we can put the word worry on things and you know that can be fear like I'm worried that people won't like me so it's a fear of this something right so I think worry is a great word to put in this and a couple weeks ago week ago I don't know what his time he went over I I was I was taking a walk and there's a coffee shop by my house and there's a big turf filled and I was walking by this turf field and saw

Katie O'Farrell (49:07.056)
you

Bonnie (49:17.378)
saw it, it called to me and I was like, I'm gonna go play in that field right now. And I said yes to myself to do it while there's a lot of cars that drive around there. There's a lot of people who walk around there. There was nobody playing on the fields at the moment. And I was like, I'm just gonna go out there. I have my headphones on and I'm just gonna go wiggle. I'm gonna dance and I'm going to flow and yoga or handstand or whatever, whatever the hell I wanna do.

And so saying yes to myself in that, regardless of like a worry of what somebody is going to see or what somebody is going to say. And going back to your hand on the bushes, right? If I were to see somebody like out there doing their thing, I'd be like, who's that person? Like, that's so cool that they're just like giving themselves permission. That's like, like, tell me, tell me more as you you on the bushes where you're paying attention and you're being really present in that moment.

But it felt like this moment where I reminded myself, was like, yeah, could, like those times when we tell ourselves no. So there's some things we're like, okay, I don't worry anymore, that's a no. But then there's other times we tell ourselves no that keeps us like less curious. And so it's like looking for where the yes and no in curiosity looks different than the yes and no of how much we are putting on our plate to be responsible for. And.

And what those, that balance of yes and no is, I think that part of paying attention is just as, is like equally as valuable as like how many yeses and nos have I signed up for to take care of my kids and family and responsibilities as in like, where can I like step into bravery and beauty and creativity and where am I giving myself that permission of yes and no? It's like, we have to have, we have this like structure and freedom. We have to have

both of those sorts of things in our lives.

Katie O'Farrell (51:14.249)
And I think that like play and curiosity aren't really like the opposite of work. Like we kind of see them as like these opposing things, like I should be working or I should be playing, but they're not really because what it is is like play then becomes this like thing that infiltrates work. So it's like you can't event, it may start out as this thing that's separate, but then it starts to become part of your life. It like weaves itself into other things, which I think is really cool because there's been moments

I'm supposed to be doing something. Like I sat down, I was on my way out to like, you know, start the day and do stuff. And I was walking out of my bedroom and there was a shadow on the floor from the, like the light, the window light was coming in and it was just like sunlight on the floor and it was so beautiful. And I was just like, just really want to sit in that. Just for a minute. I just want to like feel it on my legs. And I was like, you got to go do all these other things. I was like, yeah. And I was like at the doorway going like this, being pulled in both two different directions.

And I was just like, okay, no, I'm just gonna do it for a sec. So I just sat down for a second. And then it's just something really beautiful came to me to write about something I've been holding about this idea of like beauty and grief and how the world is so, there's so much grief in the world and how important it is if you're gonna hold like grief in one hand to make sure you're holding beauty in the other hand. And this like whole thing came to me, which I like ended up sharing, you know, through Instagram later.

And it felt so important to write. I was like, I'm so glad I sat down and made that choice because that thing, then I opened up something, the space for something creative to come through me, not on purpose. I wasn't doing it for that reason, but it allowed something that then made other parts of my life feel easier. So when I went and lived the rest of my, you know, worked the rest of my day and did the laundry and all the things, those felt softer and gentler because this thing like carried through with me.

Bonnie (52:56.654)
Hmm.

Bonnie (53:08.064)
And it's so small.

Katie O'Farrell (53:08.211)
that I'd give it space for.

Katie O'Farrell (53:13.225)
Yeah, that's the surprising part is how tiny some of these things are.

Bonnie (53:20.65)
you're like literally just invited yourself to be a cat for a second.

Katie O'Farrell (53:24.969)
Essentially, yeah.

Bonnie (53:29.664)
Like, where's the sun? That's where I will sit. And you waffled in that moment and then ultimately said, I can do this for a couple of seconds. It's not going to hurt anything like this. And then the way that that supported you, way that that buoyed you, the way that that gave you something else. And I think there's something, there's something in us. Like if we give ourselves permission to do the thing that we want to do, that takes

two seconds, that something creative, something out of the habit of where we're usually walking and what we're usually doing, I think it changes you. Like it truly changes you. And I think it continually surprises me when I give myself permission. And in this small sort of way, be like, just be a cat. Just do it for just a second. Like you thought about doing it. If you thought it like pause, like, there's a thought there.

Katie O'Farrell (54:21.572)
You

Bonnie (54:26.754)
That's interesting. Maybe even just to notice the thought, then to actually like do it. It's just, it's so freaking small, but it like, it's like this whole trickle, this ripple effect on everything else. And I, I think that's part of the beauty to me.

Katie O'Farrell (54:45.159)
I like letting beauty interrupt my life. So like, I consider myself a writer, but I don't have like writing hours. I don't like get up and write every morning for an hour or like have any kind of consistency, which for years I thought like, I'd be a better writer if I had a consistent time I write. But I also feel like certain things just come to me and when they come, I just drop everything. So I'd be like, I have this whole poem I wrote about how.

how that kind of works in me in one part of it was just like, because I'll often be like carrying the laundry down the stairs and something will come to me with my arms are full and I'll just like put the basket down and write the thing sitting in the heap and pile of dirty laundry and just like the thing comes out and then I go back to doing the laundry. So there's something about like letting beauty interrupt your day, being willing to do that. But that comes back to that whole prioritization of like, what's your priority and the quality of my life is my priority.

So therefore, letting that beauty in those cracks feels more important than like how quick I get the laundry done. And then I have piles of laundry, like I'm not super efficient and fast and I don't have the cleanest laundry, you know, all put away. But I let that go and we have clean clothes when we need them. So.

Bonnie (56:02.252)
I love that this then can lead into this conversation of control. And if you want to control the laundry or control the way that a house is kept or the way we might try to control what happens to us or how it happens to us, which we all know that that doesn't go very well.

And also I know for myself, when I feel like there's some things that are chaotic, I'm like, well, okay, what can I control? And there is an element of things that I have a good friend mentor that says control the controllables. Like there's some things out of our control that you're like, just set those down. Like stop trying so hard to do those things. What are the things you actually control? What do you want to eat for dinner? You can control that. Like, you know, there's some things that you can hold a business, a business brain. Then this person talks about business like that's something different,

I love that walking down the stairs to the laundry, because I agree with you, I've written a lot of poems on the stairs. I'm like mid -stairs and I'm like, we're sitting here for the next hour and now we're writing. But that's a different form of control where you're like, actually I can control this situation by allowing what needs to move through me, move through me. And I get to control what that thing, what I, what.

which thing gets my attention and the element of grasping or open -palmedness that exists in that moment is also this play with control and beauty and seeing the beauty in like kind of the grip and the release both.

Bonnie (57:57.58)
When you feel a lot of beauty, when you see beauty and you feel it, where do you feel it in your body?

Katie O'Farrell (58:07.169)
that's such a good question.

I think it depends on the moment, but it just like always just feels like usually it just feels like such a filling up that something has to come out. There has to be some kind of expression. So maybe that's I move and I'm dancing and that's my expression. Maybe I need to write something. But quite often it's writing or having to share something or having to leave someone a voice memo or just share it in some way. I think there's, there's like, there's a quote.

forget what the book was called. It was about that guy who moved to, he went up to Alaska to live in the wilderness and then ended up dying alone. And the last thing that they found that he had written inside the little cabin where he died was, beauty's only real when shared. And that always like, just really struck me. Beauty's only real when shared. And I think there's so many different ways to interpret what that means.

But I love when something moves me so much that I have to express it somehow to something or someone else. Whether that's just movement or it's something I need to share with a friend or it's something I write and share with everyone.

Bonnie (59:26.304)
Hmm.

Bonnie (59:31.822)
Speaking of sharing, you have done a lot of sharing through Kindred for which we met.

Bonnie (59:42.438)
Kindred as most creative things has had a journey of becoming, of saying like, what is it? Naming a thing, defining a thing, and the many interpretations of that thing. I think of Kindred as like a moving orb in some ways. At least in my experience of it.

Katie O'Farrell (01:00:06.15)
you

Bonnie (01:00:10.471)
That's the creative process, I think,

Bonnie (01:00:15.662)
Can you share a little bit more about kindred because I feel like that needs a moment here. And yeah, let's start there. Let's start there and then I'll ask you a

Katie O'Farrell (01:00:26.593)
for me, getting to have like watched this evolve as a practice over years, through my dear friend, Desh Darax, who created this.

Katie O'Farrell (01:00:41.275)
It's, it's really this like practice in creating friendship with the self. I mean, the simplest terms as a practice in the shape that it can practice now. I mean, you can do it as a self -practice, but generally speaking, it's a group practice. So you're kind of leveraging the power of the community and of friendship in the terms of, in terms of amongst people, the way a friend, you know, if you're having a hard moment and you call a friend up and they.

say supportive things to uplift you, that mechanism that humans have to be able to make each other feel better in a situation allows this work to be really powerful when done in community because you have that support. That's why we like tend to laugh. We don't laugh that much when we're alone. We tend to usually laugh a lot more when we're with our friends or with other people because of that escalation that happens emotionally between people.

when one person starts to think something's funny and then another person adds to it. And it's just, it kind of creates this whole ideal space for humor to emerge and laughter to emerge. So it's really fun way to look at the parts of yourself that are where you want to grow, where you feel stuck and start to dislodge them. But also at the same time, it just...

feels so beautiful and free. doesn't feel

Katie O'Farrell (01:02:13.811)
kind of being mired in the problem of what you're going through. It's just like, it's really looking at what's the freedom you want to have and how can your body start to practice the particular type of freedom that you want to embody.

Bonnie (01:02:31.923)
How can your body practice the freedom that you want to embody? I like that as like that's a beautiful way to say that.

Katie O'Farrell (01:02:39.155)
Yeah. And then we do it together. So you have support. You're not trying to do this alone. It's harder to do that alone. It's much harder to meditate alone than it is in a group of people, just like in general. It's harder to do yoga alone than it is to do it in a like in a room full of people who like, because you show up at a time and everybody decided this is when we're going to do it and you have somebody leading you and, you have other people who are like also yeses. So their excitement comes in. So for most people I'd say it's, it's easier to do those things when.

Bonnie (01:02:42.86)
Yeah, yeah.

Katie O'Farrell (01:03:09.277)
have a group of people all feeling excited about it.

Bonnie (01:03:12.62)
Yeah, yeah. Well, and I love the memory of being in the same room that I'm currently in. And my power went out and you and I had messaged about having a kindred session together and having a meditation together. And we just kept talking until, like you couldn't even see me anymore. We were like on FaceTime.

Katie O'Farrell (01:03:36.393)
I'm not sure.

Bonnie (01:03:39.66)
And they're facing the windows and I'm like, my power's out. So we'll just use the light. And then eventually I'm like, bye. You can't even see my face anymore.

Katie O'Farrell (01:03:44.368)
you

Katie O'Farrell (01:03:48.819)
Go until the laptop dies.

Bonnie (01:03:54.394)
gosh. Okay, so because you're there for like this, such this journey with Kindred and in the support of people and I think.

I feel like Kendra is always like an intriguing the definition of it or like this speaking about it. I'm like, this is just intriguing. You're like, wait, what is it? What, how do we? So I mean, like that's a bigger conversation, but, like kind of nuance of like, how do you do it? And like, what does that look like? Right. But like the idea of it, I think you've really captured wonderfully and you have helped facilitate people. You've helped people learn.

how to do this and then also how to facilitate this and then also have it like as a lived experience for yourself and affecting you. And so I've loved to know, you you're talking about how kindred has helped you find a home in yourself. And I think that is what a meditation practice in general has given me.

Bonnie (01:05:01.034)
Yeah, like that's how I say it. I'm like, just helps me build a home in myself that I am like hand to heart. I return right here, stay here. I'm in my feet, be where my feet are, like hand to heart. Like this is what I can do. This is what I can hold. This is all I will ever, ever, ever have. No matter how much I love or adore anybody else or anything else in my life, I will only ever have myself. And so that home that I build is imperative, right?

So yes to that, but in this process of facilitation and on supporting other people in learning Kindred, has it given you anything surprising outside of that?

Katie O'Farrell (01:05:50.259)
I do like surprises.

Katie O'Farrell (01:06:08.777)
know if I can come up with anything that feels surprising. I think what's coming to me now to share is this.

Katie O'Farrell (01:06:21.341)
this way in which

our voices, like the sharing of our voice of the like thing that kind of makes us uniquely ourselves.

Katie O'Farrell (01:06:37.257)
just how important that is. So even though this is a practice and you can learn the steps and you can learn how to facilitate it and there's, you know, guidelines and all these things, like what really is at the heart of it is that each person allow this permission of their voice to be the center of their facilitation. And that, you know, that voice is shaped by like all their life experiences and who they are and all kinds of mysterious things that we don't know.

how we arrive here with, like, why do I like the color green, you know? And so.

I think figuring out how to teach people, give them permission to allow that voice to open in themselves and come from that place has been just such a place of learning and surprise and beauty and just so much expands from there.

Bonnie (01:07:38.583)
Well, I love this topic. I love that you're talking about voice and facilitation.

Bonnie (01:07:50.178)
because I think it doesn't, I if we're talking specifically about facilitators, right? So if you're gonna stand in front of room and lead, and I work a lot with yoga teachers and I'm like, okay, let's, how does it, what does it mean to own your voice? What does it mean to lead from that in an authentic way? What does authenticity mean? Do we ever arrive? Like all of these things, I think it's a moment by moment thing. And so this, right? I'm like, I don't know.

Katie O'Farrell (01:08:14.569)
future.

Bonnie (01:08:17.966)
What does authentic mean today? Something different than yesterday and something different than three weeks ago.

Bonnie (01:08:28.387)
I like this conversation of your observation of people leading from that connection to their voice and going back to safety, right? And exploration and giving yourself permission and trying to pay attention to small ways that you might find beauty in your life. think all of, like, it's all the same conversation, I think.

Katie O'Farrell (01:08:57.235)
Yeah. I think for me, I used to want to show up places and like do a good job. Then want to like do something well and

Katie O'Farrell (01:09:10.601)
as the some of the things that I would step into, it became harder to like kind of know whether I would do that or not. As you like get braver and you step across new thresholds. And as these things got harder to like plan ahead or control kind of like what you're saying, how well you're going to do. And exhausting as well. Like the first time I gave a public speech, like I decided years ago, maybe 10 years ago, so to get over my fear of public speaking. And so I signed up to give a talk at this creative conference that this

beautiful woman was putting together and it was really fun, but I was terrified. And so I wrote a speech and memorized a 20 minute speech and gave the entire 20 minute speech from memory, which I don't have a strong memory. can't even remember like the lyrics to my favorite song. So I worked so hard to memorize that. And then I went out and I gave that whole speech like perfectly and got a standing ovation and it was amazing. And then I was like suddenly not afraid of talking anymore.

But that also wasn't a sustainable way. I was quite aware that that's not a sustainable way to work because I would never be able to, unless I gave the same exact speech multiple places, which isn't that interesting to me, I wouldn't be able to do that every time. I would have to come from a different place. So that place, it was important for me to have that experience and have that control in that situation because it helped me get over my fear by having the control of knowing what I was going to say.

But as I like looked into like, okay, my future and how do I want to speak in front of crowds? It's like, or in front of people, I want it to be more of like an emergence from myself. And so there's this like, I'm going to have to trust something in myself is going to, I'm going to put myself in, I'm going to show up with you and something's just going to come out of me that, feels worth saying or worth listening to. And that's a deep level of trust. And to get to that place, I had to give up the sense of like wanting to, to be good.

for being honest. And so, and for me, there's like a real, because I cry so easily, like when I moved, I just moved to tears really quickly. So for me to do that, have to also be willing to like cry. Because if I don't, I kind of have like no off switch for it. So it's either like, we don't talk about anything interesting at all, which most things are interesting to me. So it's really hard. Or I have to be willing to.

Bonnie (01:11:25.099)
You

Katie O'Farrell (01:11:28.883)
be emotional and be crying because that's, I just don't really have an off switch for it. So, so there's a certain level of vulnerability because I have to show up places willing to like, just let it all pour out. Cause it's like all or nothing. but I've just like moved deeper and deeper into this, like, how can I be honest when I show up? And that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with what I say. It more has to do with

I mean, it will reflect in what I say, but it will often just be like in how I feel or am I hiding or can I stay with my body instead of feeling like I'm disassociating or kind of running away or putting on this mask or pretending to be something.

Bonnie (01:12:16.374)
I have been thinking about honesty a lot in this past week in my own personal life and in different conversations I've had and it is hard sometimes.

Bonnie (01:12:33.976)
Sometimes it is very easy. it's like this, nope, this is what it is. This is, and sometimes it's hard because sometimes we don't know where we're going or what we're doing. And it's messy. The process is messy. And there has to be so much.

Bonnie (01:12:59.202)
There has, we have to give each other ourselves and each other, like we have to extend so much curiosity and bravery and grace to be honest.

Katie O'Farrell (01:13:19.177)
So much grace. It makes me think of like when I used to photograph people, I used to have these practices of trying to bring people into themselves, kind of like, and it was really hard to do because people weren't necessarily expecting that coming into it. I didn't really market my photography in a way to like advertise that. So people come in and I would want to get natural pictures of them. So I try to like have these ways of inviting them into this.

But they weren't necessarily prepared for it and they would sometimes like not want to play. And so they would still, some people that would like open them up and other people would like close them down even more. And I just remember how I would pay attention to like my body and be like, wow, I can't get my body to open when I noticed their body's closed. It's like, I couldn't get myself to go first enough to like really open up enough to be like, to feel really present and to feel really like I'm safe in my body to then.

Bonnie (01:13:55.555)
Mmm.

Katie O'Farrell (01:14:15.677)
facilitate that well. And I was just like, I'd have to come home and be like, it didn't go the way I wanted to. I like chickened out. didn't like go all in. And I just remember how many times I had to like put my own hand on my heart and just be like, okay, but you're learning and you're growing. And the fact that you just even care or want to grow in that direction is beautiful. Even if you don't get there in one step or one jump or one leap, it's just like, it's, think the thing about growth is it's slow and over time. And even though you can have big

Bonnie (01:14:17.463)
Hmm.

Bonnie (01:14:32.854)
Yeah.

Katie O'Farrell (01:14:45.105)
and moments of realization, it still feels like there's still a slow, consistent quality.

to growth and change.

Bonnie (01:14:55.754)
Yes.

Katie O'Farrell (01:14:56.989)
And that's not that sexy. We don't really like slow. once they're like big and wild, they go, my God, I'm changed. I'll never be the same. I think we feel moments of that. But then you have those moments, but then you have to integrate it into your actual life and your habits and your patterns and the ways you respond to like the challenging things.

Bonnie (01:15:02.882)
Slow and messy and nuanced.

Katie O'Farrell (01:15:20.755)
which is beautiful work.

Bonnie (01:15:22.498)
Yeah, well, again, because sometimes the change is the challenging thing. And sometimes it like makes things, sometimes it makes things harder and sometimes it makes things easier and sometimes there's not an easier, harder binary. It just makes things and you're like,

Bonnie (01:15:42.523)
we're doing this now. Okay, cool, cool, cool. Great, love this. Love this.

Bonnie (01:15:51.2)
Yeah, I think

in the quest for beauty and joy. I think it is a quest of abundance. Like you have to be willing, I think, to look at a space where there's always room to grow and where there's always room.

There's always like more space and

I for each of us, I know for myself, it can be easy. There can be times where it feels easy to tap into like holding yourself smaller or quieter or less movable and scared slash scarce, right? To be in the scarcity mind of like not enough. I'm not enough. The world's not enough. Either something or that it's not gonna be okay.

or am I safe or am I not? And what does that mean today? And I think that our ability to see beauty and joy requires us to see abundance, to see that there's enough for all of us to see that there is room to play in and to move in. And I think you're absolutely right that work and play is

Bonnie (01:17:16.212)
separate, like I think they overlap way more than we think they

Bonnie (01:17:29.827)
Nice.

Bonnie (01:17:34.58)
You want to publish a book of poetry and photography, yes?

Katie O'Farrell (01:17:39.555)
it feels kind of like if that's an inevitable thing at some point in my life. It's not what I'm working on right now. I have another project I'm working on right now, but I do imagine at some point I will publish a book of those things together. They just go together so well. there, it kind of feels like at the very least, it feels like my memoir would be like that because it just sums up so much of how I live my life and how I experience, and record my life.

Right now, I'm working on building what I call an Institute of Friendship. So I'm kind of starting. Sure, yeah. Well, the whole thing as an Institute of Friendship is bigger than... I don't have the whole thing yet. It's just an unfolding of... And I'm just starting with this little tiny seed and letting it grow into like what it will become.

Bonnie (01:18:18.678)
Do want to share more than that?

Katie O'Farrell (01:18:39.987)
talk about like control. I've thought about trying to like write down like what I want the whole big picture to be when I imagine and I keep like not letting myself because I want to live like the river unfolding. I just really want to like build the seed that I know is like the most true in this moment and then see what it becomes. So right now I'm building a library of these little half meditations, half like voice memos that a best friend would leave you and for moments when you just feel really stuck

kind of don't know what to do or you just need some upliftment, but I want to make them these like really specific to life situations. Like most meditations are kind of general for wellbeing or they might have a theme for sleep or for a couple like kind of general feelings, but I want to make these really specific. Like you have a job interview tomorrow or you just got in a fight with your best friend or you are getting married or you're having a really hard parenting moment.

And I want to make them really specific to what people are experiencing and then make them really easily searchable by. So you can kind of go in and say, this is what I want to feel. I want to, I need courage. And then you could find these little, they're, you know, half meditation, half the way a best friend would lift you up. If you're like, I'm going through this and I need you to help me. And so these, these little tiny like, you know, four, three, four or five minute things that you can just kind of have access to when you need to like.

a new perspective, you need to change how you're feeling by seeing something a little differently. And I think it's also one of the most things that gets me the most is kind of creating space where people can see their own beauty and their own strength and power and just like what is in them that is just like waiting to be like unlocked and released and realized and like lived into. And so I really want these to have that power to kind of unlock for people and not like

Like yes, external friendship is really powerful in moments and can really uplift. And I think there's a reason we're all here together to do it together, but then also redirecting people to just really the internal power of their friendship with themselves and their bodies and just a huge gift that is in there, just ready to give to them.

Bonnie (01:20:53.935)
Mmm.

Bonnie (01:21:01.056)
Mmm. That is beautiful.

Katie O'Farrell (01:21:05.385)
Thanks.

Bonnie (01:21:08.3)
And it feels so right to call it like the Institute of friendship and the way you have talked about friendship and how that has impacted you to build a friendship with yourself.

Like that's really beautiful.

Katie O'Farrell (01:21:24.969)
Thank you. I'm really excited.

Bonnie (01:21:26.22)
Hmm.

Katie O'Farrell (01:21:29.085)
I'm spending two weeks camping and coming up. so I'm bringing my, I just got a whole battery pack so can bring my microphone and record things in the forest. Very excited about. Yeah.

Bonnie (01:21:37.746)
Amazing. I love this. Thank you so much for being here today.

Katie O'Farrell (01:21:48.275)
Thank you for the invitation to join you in this beautiful conversation.

Bonnie (01:21:54.493)
I love the, I think for me, I really love how we can hold really tangible things and experiences and also like the philosophical ways we think about things and how that is like mundane and spiritual everything. Everything.

Katie O'Farrell (01:22:12.57)
Yeah, I love that too.

Bonnie (01:22:16.054)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Bonnie (01:22:21.914)
I'm gonna put your, I'll put your social media, your Instagram links so people can watch you peddle yourself. I will share that in the show notes. Is there anywhere else you wanna direct people to? Right

Katie O'Farrell (01:22:27.305)
Thanks.

Katie O'Farrell (01:22:33.955)
yeah, haven't fully built out the institutafriendship .com yet, but there's like a little spot where you can pop your email if you're interested in like learning more when it goes live.

Bonnie (01:22:43.534)
Okay, perfect. Anybody who's listening to this, we hope you petal yourself. And by that I'm gonna say like to, I think of flower petals as people are like, my gosh, I bought myself flowers. like sometimes the, I don't know, that has a feeling to it rather than waiting for somebody else where flowers are often something that's gifted to people. I was like, no, you can buy yourself flowers, but.

or they're used in decoration, right? So the ways that flowers and petals are used and this idea of peddling yourself, of filling yourself with flower petals and to use that as an analogy to do the thing, like from our conversation here, like go do the thing that people are not gonna do. Go disrupt the pattern, go do something unexpected, go like

build like the safety in yourself to be like, know what? I could be the cat for five seconds. I just sit here. So Katie, you're an incredible source of beauty and of joy. And thank you for all of this encouragement and permission for like authenticity.

Katie O'Farrell (01:24:04.329)
Thank you for the beautiful quality of your questions and your art.

Bonnie (01:24:12.448)
And the heart is a gift.

Okay loves, thank you for being here with us and please reach out to Katie. You can find her in the show notes, say hello on the Gram, share this conversation with other people who you know love to think about beauty and joy and any part that felt like it lit you up. We would love to hear about