Sales copywriter Kaili Meyer of Reveal Studio Co. is all about owning her voice. She joins us today and we go deep on business, authenticity, and writing to sell.
Some episode highlights:
- Why showing up as yourself is the way to magnetize clients
- Five things to do when starting a new business
- The four buyer types to understand
- How writing and copywriting differ and why we need both
- How to prevent burnout as an online business owner
- The place all women should be investing money
- and so much more!
Check out Kaili's Instagram and website.
Weekly stories by email from Bonnie’s HERE
Connect with Bonnie: Instagram, Email (hello@bonnieweeks.com), Website
Listen to Bonnie's other podcast Sexy Sunday HERE
The music for this episode is Threads by The Light Meeting.
Produced by: Grey Tanner
Sales copywriter Kaili Meyer of Reveal Studio Co. is all about owning her voice. She joins us today and we go deep on business, authenticity, and writing to sell.
Some episode highlights:
- Why showing up as yourself is the way to magnetize clients
- Five things to do when starting a new business
- The four buyer types to understand
- How writing and copywriting differ and why we need both
- How to prevent burnout as an online business owner
- The place all women should be investing money
- and so much more!
Check out Kaili's Instagram and website.
Weekly stories by email from Bonnie’s HERE
Connect with Bonnie: Instagram, Email (hello@bonnieweeks.com), Website
Listen to Bonnie's other podcast Sexy Sunday HERE
The music for this episode is Threads by The Light Meeting.
Produced by: Grey Tanner
Bonnie (00:02.553)
Hello loves, welcome back to the podcast. We are here to pay attention today in a way that feels really exciting to me, something that I've been nerding out a lot in this past year with a guest that honestly, I really am excited to introduce you to. So this person is somebody who, cause you know that I'm all about owning the hell out of your voice. So this is somebody who owns the hell out of their voice. This is somebody who pays attention to what brings
joy and is willing to share that. And somebody who is kind of a no BS type of honesty, which I fucking love. And she's real and she has all the expertise. And if she doesn't, then she's like, that's not my expertise, right? Like this is like the honesty that we crave. Like where's the real humanity of people who are doing business, who are
real humans and who are online. And so as somebody for myself who does so much online, it's really fun to connect with the people who are doing it online and doing it a different way and in a different field. Like this is Yoga Strong where we're talking about paying attention and how that shows up in all areas of our lives. But there's a lot of us who are here coming from the yoga realm. So if you're interested in online business, if you're interested in real human talk and owning the hell out of your voice, if you're interested in
knowing what a copywriter does and how that can impact you and how you can uplevel what you're offering, how you're saying it and how you're owning your voice online, then this is probably going to be for you. So welcome, Kayleigh Meyer of Reveal Studio Co. to the podcast.
Kaili Meyer (01:50.358)
Yay! Thank you for having me. I'm so excited.
Bonnie (01:54.466)
So as like a backstory for folks who are maybe unaware of who you are, I've been sharing a little bit about you on the gram and then in person and in conversations with some people. But I have no idea how I found you. Thus, you know, as somebody said once, they're like, well, it's either the algorithm or divine intervention. Like, and you know, I think that those could be the same thing too. Yeah.
But I think it was about a year ago that I bought one of your templates. And then last summer I participated in something you called the Summer Selling Series, which I love that, I don't know, that was like a new thing for you. And 10 weeks and I have, you know, a weekly lesson and as somebody who has been in the online business kind of sphere and not on purpose, like I did not.
come here on purpose to do what I'm doing, and yet this is what I'm doing and I'm loving what I'm doing. But I'm also realizing one of the phrases I've been thinking about is, what has gotten me here is not what will move me forward. And so, you know, thinking about, well, where do I need to tweak or what do I need to learn? And you, Kayleigh, have been such a big piece of my learning. So I just want to say thank you.
Kaili Meyer (03:01.998)
Thank you.
Kaili Meyer (03:13.774)
Oh, I love that. Stop. That's so sweet. I actually was thinking about that the other day trying to remember when exactly our paths crossed and I couldn't pinpoint it. But I know you have just been such, for lack of a better word, joy to be connected with since getting you and it's actually really refreshing as somebody kind of the opposite. I have always been in the business, the online business space. Like this didn't happen accidentally. I serve.
Bonnie (03:32.305)
Mm.
Kaili Meyer (03:43.246)
business owners, that is my thing. It's really nice to have connection and community with people who almost accidentally got here because it's just a different relationship and perspective than when I'm chatting with or connecting with my strictly business friends. It kind of feels like a breath of fresh air.
Bonnie (04:01.85)
Mm.
Well, thank you. I think you mentioned somewhere recently that you're trying to have a lot more fun this year. But I do think of it as a piece of that where I'm choosing this. And I think there's a lot of different maybe points in our lives where we maybe when we have the opportunity to not choose something that we realize that we're really choosing it. But I think about that for what I'm doing
I'm choosing to do this. And so how do I bring some sort of fun to it or own it or whatever it is that so it's not mundane and not like dreadful. I'm glad that there's a piece of joy that you're picking up in all that.
Kaili Meyer (04:49.774)
Oh, a ton. Not just a piece. There's a ton.
Bonnie (04:54.933)
Okay, well, I want to know the person behind the business. So since it's fascinating to me that you started and thought I'm gonna be, I'm gonna go in online and I'm gonna work online, but I want you to rewind 10 years, which is a good chunk of time. So back to 10 years, what were you doing then and could you picture where you are today?
Kaili Meyer (05:19.758)
So that's actually crazy. Exactly 10 years ago, I was starting this magazine at Iowa State, so it's called Happy Strong Healthy. So I had originally gone to school for kinesiology. I thought, you know, I want to be in the health and fitness world. But I was battling an eating disorder and I was really, like I was a bodybuilder.
Bonnie (05:27.29)
Mm.
Kaili Meyer (05:44.91)
which was just a way for me to justify my eating disorder as prep, as, oh no, I just, you know, and leaning out. And of course I'm doing two a days every day. Like I wanna be a good competitor. And so then I thought, well, it only makes sense for me to go into kinesiology. And then it really, it was all consuming. Like everywhere I turned, I was either learning about health and fitness, doing health and fitness, teaching about health and fitness. And it wasn't actually coming from a healthy place. It was coming from...
Bonnie (05:48.166)
Hmm.
Kaili Meyer (06:14.862)
in an overwhelming, obsessive place. And so I kind of thought back to childhood, like what brought me Joy's childhood? What came easily to me as a kid? And I have a distinct memory of being at my older brother's swimming lessons and having a fat stack of card stock with me and one of those fun like pencil cases, like I don't know when you were a kid, if you loved where you kept your pens and pencils.
and I was writing and illustrating my first book and I was four and it was about talking vegetables who go to the zoo and a carrot who eats a giraffe and it's like oh we're the same because your neck looks like you know whatever a four-year-old and so I was always a writer so much so that I was put in speech therapy because I wouldn't speak to anyone I would write
Bonnie (06:53.521)
course.
Kaili Meyer (07:11.79)
what I had to say. And so I tell people writing is my first language. Um, it's always been the thing that I excelled at and loved that felt very natural. And so I was kind of thinking to myself, well, what could I do with writing? And I, I went to the journalism school at Iowa State and just spoke to an advisor. And he said, before you leave kinesiology, why don't you join either the newspaper or a magazine and just make sure that this is actually something you want to do.
Bonnie (07:14.166)
Mm.
Kaili Meyer (07:40.974)
So I sat in on, and Iowa State has one of the leading journalism schools. It's accredited. There's not very many accredited journalism schools in the nation. Iowa State's one of them. And so they have very, they have a renowned newspaper and really great magazines. But I sat in on the meetings. I didn't feel aligned with any of them. None of them were like exciting me. I wrote for the mental health column for the newspaper and it, but newspaper writing didn't feel right to me. There wasn't enough creativity. It was very structured in a specific way.
And so I said, I'm just gonna start my own. And before I became a journalism student, I went back to that advisor. I said, I'm gonna start a magazine. And he said, well, no one's done that for five years. Certainly no one not in the journalism school has done that. It's actually not as easy as just starting it. Like you have to come up with a constitution. You have to get a staff, you have to get funding. You have to pitch yourself to the board to get any funding from the school to even be approved to create this thing.
And at the time they were cutting funding for all creative clubs and things. And I was like, okay. So I got a staff, I created a constitution and we went and pitched ourselves to the board and we got the highest level of funding any magazine had ever gotten. And I had a staff of 50 under me and had no clue what I was doing. So we had like.
a PR segment advertising where they had to go out into the community and convince stores and stuff to place ads in our magazine that didn't even exist yet. Uh, we had photographers, obviously writers, editors, all this stuff. And it's just me in charge. And I am, I've never worked on a magazine. I'm a caseology. I don't know what I'm doing. And it's an 80 page print magazine. It was the biggest learning experience and like most fun I've ever had. And it felt
Bonnie (09:15.207)
I'm sorry.
Kaili Meyer (09:35.758)
Like we were pulling all-nighters regularly because you think that there's hiccups that can happen in the online business space when it's going to print. And when you are trying to get students, right? So we're talking 18 to 23 year old kids to come together, meet deadlines, do a good job. I mean, it was a fricking mess. We had one of our main designers had like a breakdown the day before print.
or the day before we had to send to print, took the USB of all the designs, disappeared. Literally no one heard from him again. For years, he came out of the woodwork. Years later, he had left. I don't fully know, but we had to pull an all-nighter redesigning the whole magazine the night. Crazy. So I am scrambling. I don't know how to use InDesign. I don't know how to do any of, I am, what am I doing? So that's when I realized, oh, I love this. This is fun. And so...
Bonnie (10:18.504)
What?
Kaili Meyer (10:32.782)
that magazine earned me an apprenticeship at Meredith Corporation. So Meredith Corporation does like eating well, shape, better homes and garden, diabetic living. I got to be a junior editor for them. Loved the world of magazine, did not love the measly salary that came with it. You didn't even get benefits, I believe, for like three or four years. You couldn't even get health insurance. Nothing.
and you're being paid sub $40,000 a year. And so I was just like, whoa, I literally am not coming out. So I realized, okay, I know what I love to do. I wanna write, but it can't be this. So I got into corporate marketing for a Fortune 500 finance company. And personal finance weirdly is a hobby of mine. So it was really cool because I was at the highest level of investments. So we were.
I was a thought capital writer for institutional investments, which just means you're not an institution, you're a person. But the state of Texas would invest their retirement funds with us, and that's an institution. And I had to write thought capital pieces for investors. And I realized very quickly the creativity is not there, but I'm learning so much. And so I started freelance writing on the side and eventually replaced my income.
freelance writing and finally left corporate. And that's when it wasn't called Reveal, but that's when Reveal first started.
Bonnie (12:01.645)
Oh my gosh, what an awesome timeline. So when did you quit corporate and go full-time as yourself? Like how long ago was that?
Kaili Meyer (12:03.118)
YOT.
Kaili Meyer (12:11.566)
It's six years. I had written on my calendar at my desk, every week I would write, put two weeks in, put two weeks in, and I kept moving it because I was just terrified. And anybody in a creative field knows that your entire childhood, you're pretty much told, like, no, that's a hobby, but like, what do you want to do? What do you want to be? And my two things were writing and art. I also draw with charcoal.
Bonnie (12:14.233)
Okay.
Bonnie (12:25.027)
Mm.
Kaili Meyer (12:38.766)
And it was like, well, what are you going to be an art teacher? What are you going to be an author? And it was very defeating, but I was also a nerd, so good at school. So I was like, okay, I guess I'll do art on the side and I'll write my little poetry and I'll go do something else. And so I thought that's kind of why I went the physical therapy route. I was like, I'll be a physical therapist and I'll do art on the weekends. And so it was just really.
I was nervous. It took a lot to jump because I had never, I didn't know anyone who was a copywriter. I didn't know anyone in the online business world. I had no clue where I was gonna build a client list from, but I just realized this is not the life I want at all. Like these, this office is not what I want. So I just left.
Bonnie (13:24.345)
Mm-hmm.
Bonnie (13:29.181)
Yeah, this is fascinating because I think in several points in this story, there is a lot of fear that you're like coming up against, right? Of like, who am I to do this thing? Or like, create something that doesn't exist, do something that you've never done before. And even if you're moving your two weeks, like that was like, that's the plan. That's, and then you did it. And thinking about the magazine.
So it's like, well, people don't do this. You're like, okay, cool. Like, what do I have to lose? Like, I'll just, I guess I'll do it then. Like, fine. But is that, I don't know. I guess, you know, I find a kinship, I think, with that because there is a certain level of risk that some people I think are more okay with just as a person. And some people are just not wired that way. Your brain isn't able to hold that. I mean, as...
white women, there's like a different sort of experience we might have in the world as well for privilege and whatnot. But also, there's other people I know that are white women who are not wired with risk taking. So outside of like the privilege of skin and education and things like that, for you to take those risks and to step into that, there has to be a level then of you feeling like you...
Like you had you, like you were gonna be okay.
Kaili Meyer (14:56.462)
Yeah. And I think that for me personally stemmed from my parents divorced when I was young and then my mom was a single mother of four. We did not have money, but I split 50-50 time and half the time I was with my dad who was a golf pro and has been for 30 years. We did not have exorbitant amounts of wealth, but I didn't have to.
worry about if I was gonna get new tennis shoes when I was at dad's house. But I watched my mom, I mean, work her ass off. She worked three plus jobs, was rarely home, which was a really tough experience on its own to go through that as a kid. But I think I decided really young, like number one, money will never be an issue for me, never. It will never be the reason I cannot live a full life. And number two,
Bonnie (15:33.562)
Hmm.
Kaili Meyer (15:48.942)
it will always come from me. I will never need to depend on a man or on a partner or on any source outside of me to take care of me. And so it was really deeply rooted very young that, oh no, there is not a plan B. Plan A is like, it's gonna be good and I'm gonna make it work. And I think that's where it came from for me.
Bonnie (16:08.325)
Hmm. Yeah. Well, and hearing that you're saying that personal finance is a hobby, this also makes sense.
Kaili Meyer (16:17.454)
Oh yeah, I mean, I, from a very young age, I was reading as many, like I'm talking elementary school. I just understood whether we like it or not, money is the thing that can like free you or lock you down. And I just was like, I will never be a slave to money. I will find a way. And I didn't have this idea of
Bonnie (16:36.177)
Mm-hmm.
Kaili Meyer (16:46.99)
you know, being rich or being wealthy, I just knew like, I'm not gonna strictly eat hamburger helper because it's the only thing I can afford. You know, I'm not gonna wait until there's a hole in my tennis shoes. If I want new tennis shoes, because I deserve new tennis shoes, I'm gonna be able to go buy new tennis shoes. And that was my idea of wealth wasn't all this excess. It was just when I need something and even when I want something to an extent.
Bonnie (17:05.369)
Hmm.
Kaili Meyer (17:15.438)
I'm going to be able to do it.
Bonnie (17:18.145)
Yeah. This makes me think of Ramit. I don't know if you follow him at Ramit on the gram where he talks about a rich life and how we each define what our rich life is. And you're like, my rich life is if I need a new pair of tennis shoes, that I can go and afford a new pair of tennis shoes where somebody else is like, I'm going to the Bahamas every weekend.
Bonnie (17:41.877)
Yeah, yeah. Man, I like this. I like this too because, you know, I think this is actually, this is a cool moment to say, we can all look at each other and have no idea of what anybody comes with and the experiences they arrive in front of us with. And it's so easy to make assumptions for all of us. And...
I think the conversation about money and people's feels about that are quite immense. And where you have come from this place of being like, well, I'm kind of a nerd here, so we're going to like dive into money. And then also a lived experience where you really could observe different ways how money has affected your family, has given you this unique kind of perspective. And it's so valuable. And so valuable for where you are now. And in...
because you do some coaching and you talk about money and there has to be a comfortability with that in order to address it and be able to hold it and be like, sure, people go ahead and give me your thoughts and feelings about money and as a business owner and facing scarcity and abundance and befriending that balance as a business owner is all part of the experience.
Kaili Meyer (19:04.334)
Great. 100%.
Bonnie (19:06.433)
Yeah, yeah. Fascinating. Okay, I think we'll go back. We'll have more money things I think to talk about. Yeah, fascinating. So for you today, actually let's go that direction. If you were to share a list of the things that make you money today, what does that list look like?
Kaili Meyer (19:29.39)
tangibly like what are and the difference.
Bonnie (19:31.357)
Like currently, like what's, how, how does money get into your account?
Kaili Meyer (19:35.662)
Yeah. So one-on-one services, writing copy, right? So writing websites, writing sales pages, writing emails, digital products, so templates. I want something that's really important to me is I'm only one person. I can't write copy for everybody who needs copy, but that doesn't mean, you know, people shouldn't have access to a really good copy. So I have a template shop for that. Investments, like just general investments. So investing in the markets, pretty much every type of account.
I can legally have with the way my business structure is. I do, and I pour as much money into that as I can. I have a couple of, so collaborations. I collab with a couple of different brands and other names on creating products or offers. And then when they get sold, we do a profit split. Super underrated high yield savings accounts. Right now, I mean,
reminder it is currently March of 2024. I don't know what's gonna happen with interest rates, but right now you can get like a really great interest rate on a high yield savings account. Actually for some people it's like beating out them out that they're getting in the stock market. Yeah, that's it.
Bonnie (20:50.277)
How do you start a high yield savings account?
Kaili Meyer (20:52.718)
Oh my God, so easy. It's like the easiest thing. You just find the institution, the financial institution. So the bank essentially that you want to start it with, you figure out, you know, some of them, not all banks have them, but like I use Goldman Marcus because they're trustworthy, they're reputable and they had the rate that I wanted. But there's like Ally, there's some that are just for women. There are some, you know, you could go to.
Bonnie (21:03.79)
Like any bank.
Kaili Meyer (21:21.07)
I'm sure like US bank has one, which is a bank a lot of people use in chase. Uh, but you can really easily do a search for just, uh, minimum deposits and figure out what works for you. But I think, I guess like to bring it back to money, my advice is to women and to anyone but women is like, if you have a large chunk of money, it should not be sitting in a general savings or checking account, it just should not. Like that number should be kept relatively low.
going, your money should be constantly growing for you. And the great thing about a high yield savings account is you get that interest rate regardless, and it can change depending on the federal reserve rate, which we're not gonna nerd out, but it can change and it will change. But the cool thing about a high yield savings is you can pull your money from it whenever. So it's liquid at all times. It's not like a CD or an IRA where
it's living and growing and if you want to pull it out, there's either a process or there's fees. It's just a different place to store your money that is gonna make more.
Bonnie (22:27.117)
Okay. I love this. I appreciate it. Thank you for answering this question. This is somebody who does not, I do not have a high yield savings account. Obviously I'm like, tell me more. Taking notes. We're all taking notes, but from my story, I, I was not the primary person who was making money. I was a stay at home mom, uh, three kids. And then I'm stepping into my own business and. I.
Kaili Meyer (22:35.758)
Yeah! Me too.
Bonnie (22:55.633)
I can't even tell you like how much joy it brings me to have to make my own money, to have my own bank account, do the things where it was always a shared experience. And I will never, I will never mix money again. And it's like my advice to my kids, I'm like, don't mix money, just keep your own things. Like you could have a joint thing together where you both give into that, but like there's something different about it. And there's a lot of people that I'm talking to right now who are...
maybe moms, so people who have kids, people who have kids who are getting into business, also people who are going through divorce and trying to then figure out how to build their own life and perhaps they have kids or perhaps they don't. And so I think speaking specifically to more traditionally women who have not maybe had their own accounts, right? We're like taking a dude's last name. We're like being put on the bank account. We're like, you know, there's a good long history of like...
money and women that we can all Google. So this conversation is still really important.
Kaili Meyer (23:59.278)
Well, what's actually fascinating is women, historically, at least for the last, I'm not gonna put an exact number out, but like a good chunk of time, have had more purchasing power than men. So women spend more money, move more money in America than men do. The issue is women have access to less of that money. So it's like we have a combined account.
but the woman's the one buying the groceries, paying the bills, taking care of the finances. So she should be more educated, be able to make more of those decisions, but really it's just like, it's the man, traditionally it's shared, or kind of the man's money, or we ask men what we can do with the money, even though as women we are moving more of the money. And so it's something that, even though it has nothing to do with copywriting and.
anything like that, I do like to talk about money regularly because in the past three years, I've witnessed three of my friends get divorced and kind of exactly what you were just saying. The fallout of that has been really tough financially and it's just like a constant reminder of like, traditionally this is not serving the woman, this is serving the man. At the end of the day, the woman is regularly getting screwed, especially if.
The agreement is, you know, you work and you provide and I will take care of the children and the home and well then what happens if you like now the woman has to go get back into the workplace and post 2020 the workplace is a really hard place to get into even if you've been in it consistently, not to mention if you haven't been an employee and now you're trying to get in so then there's people trying to start this just the whole thing. So talking about money.
Bonnie (25:28.785)
Mm-hmm.
Bonnie (25:50.285)
Yeah. But is this, and you're kind of saying like, this isn't with anything to do with maybe copywriting, but it also does because you charge money. And it's for businesses to make money. And on your, you had a call with a group of people yesterday and I want to say, was it like 250 launches? How many launches have you estimated?
Kaili Meyer (25:51.278)
important I think.
Kaili Meyer (26:16.238)
Yes, between 200 and 250.
Bonnie (26:18.893)
Right, so you're helping people launch products and businesses like close to 250 times. That's a lot of revenue that you're helping create and organize. And so I actually really love that this conversation is like, OK, money, business, copywriting. Because even I signed up to have you audit some of my web pages at the end of this last year.
Kaili Meyer (26:23.118)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Bonnie (26:47.941)
I was like, hey, look at this. You're like, you offered it as like a small offering. It's not something you do regularly. You're like, I'll read your web page. I will just like redline it, you know, or like put marks all over and I'll tell you how much you need to change. And I was like, absolutely, please sign me up. And really then trying to figure out how to say the things to allow people to participate. And I think about
I really like to use the word participate because it's the branding or maybe the colors that somebody wears and the things that they say and the language they use and the way that they move their body if they're a visual sort of brand, right? I consider myself a visual in that way because I'm doing stuff with my body. So that is like your branding, but this marketing piece is then saying, how do you help people understand how they can participate with you?
And how do you put that into words to make that make sense and give them the information and help them feel comfortable and like going back to risk, like people who have all different levels of ability to make risks in their lives. Like, how do you help minimize that and help them land in some trust? And so this conversation of risk and trust and business and copywriting is all one big story really. Yeah.
Kaili Meyer (28:08.174)
Yeah. Yeah, I love you.
Bonnie (28:12.689)
Okay, so when you are, as an online business, before we get into some, I'm excited to kind of really tack some business stuff and get nerdy about that. But as an online business for yourself right now, how do you befriend online work instead of getting burned out by it?
Kaili Meyer (28:36.782)
Hmm. I think a couple of things. Number one, as cheesy as it sounds, I think it is really important that you love what you do. If you're, or at least really like it, or at least love an element of it, right? If, I think where you're gonna for sure burn out is if the only reason you're doing something is because.
somebody sold you the story that you can be your own boss overnight, you can become anything, you can make a million dollars while you sleep and you're not doing something you love or that you feel aligned with, you just are trying to make money. So I think step one is making sure that you either love or really like what you're doing. Step two, I think boundaries. So boundaries with yourself, boundaries with your clients, boundaries with everything. So just
knowing like how much am I willing to work? How much am I willing to give? What are the relationships gonna look like? Making sure that your legal contracts are stipulating that as well. I think one area that almost every business owner gets burned in is they didn't have an appropriate contract for some type of relationship, whether it's a client relationship, a collaborator relationship, a contractor relationship, an affiliate, we just need to make sure that we are legally legit.
Um, and then I think it's just the kind of learning.
learning how you work and learning signs of like, oh, I'm approaching burnout, I need to pause. And a huge piece of that for me is like embracing the slow seasons, because I think regardless of where you're at in business, regardless of how successful you are, there are going to be seasons where things slow down, inquiries slow down for a lot of people this might be during holidays, because people are, you know, spending time with family. If you work with a lot of parents or mothers, okay, so things like spring break when they're
Kaili Meyer (30:34.318)
their kids are home or they're out. And instead of trying to fill those slow seasons with like something like, oh my God, I should be doing something. It's eventually learning like, no, if I don't embrace those or I feel the need to make those busy seasons as well, I'm never having restorative time. And I think those three main themes have helped me like really genuinely love what I do. I always tell my partner.
I feel like I'm doing something wrong, getting paid to do what I do, because I'm like, this feels illegal. I love, love what I do. Like genuinely love it. Every day I like wake up, I'm like, yay, another day. And I'm sure someday this will like come to an end. And I think at that point, I will then have to be like, okay, this is a sign. We need to pivot and move along. But for now, I just am excited. I love the people I work with. I think it's...
Bonnie (31:29.969)
Mm-hmm.
Kaili Meyer (31:32.142)
really cool as much as social media on the online space can just be a nuisance and can be a really ugly place. There's so much good in it too. Like, I would not know who you are. We would not be here without it. And I think that that is so cool because I consider the people that I meet and genuinely connect with like a part of my story and a part of my life. It's not, you know, we go back eight, nine, 10 years, it would have been weird to be talking to somebody from Instagram. Like it would have been like kind of creepy.
And now I'm literally like, no, that's my friend. Like if she's in Phoenix, we are going to dinner. She is coming to my home. This is not weird. And so I think building a community of people that you really love and connect with online can be very filling your cup instead of feeling like you're constantly emptying it.
Bonnie (32:19.537)
Mmm.
Yeah, I even think back five years. I think it was in 2019, maybe it was the beginning of 18 and.
Bonnie (32:37.617)
actually, I think it was 2000. Yeah, somewhere around there. I think it was somewhere around there. And I arranged to go meet up with a friend that I met on Instagram probably four years before that. And she had been living in China. And then she came to the States and was on the East Coast. And I made a trip out to the East Coast and we met up and hung out. And she had people in her life that were like, wait a second, like, this is a stranger from the internet that you're just like,
Kaili Meyer (33:03.15)
Weird.
Bonnie (33:07.313)
call me when you're there, like, are you going to be safe? So I was like, you know, think like five years ago even. So, I mean, people have been meeting up because of the internet for a long time, but it is a common thing now where it feels like less surprise from people to think, oh, you're just going to meet up with some random person where I think, yeah, you're right. Like several years ago, people were not prepared for that.
Kaili Meyer (33:26.542)
Yeah.
Kaili Meyer (33:35.79)
Yeah, I remember the first time I did it. I had a client that I had originally met in my first three or four months. I was on like Upwork and Fiverr because copywriters on Instagram weren't a thing. Really when I started like there was not this and so I was on Instagram, but it was from my personal account. I didn't know how to reach business. I didn't know. So I was on like Upwork and Fiverr and I my first client ever.
owned a athletic apparel company in Boston. And I remember like after working writing blogs for her for nine months, she was like, Why don't you fly out and stay with me in Boston? We'll go to Cape we'll go boating. Well, and I was like, Yeah, for sure. And it didn't strike me until I like landed and was in the Uber on the way to her house that I was like, Oh, my god, I am about to go sleep at a stranger's house.
and spend the entire weekend. I'd never been in Boston. I'm like, what am I doing? And I was pretty young, this is five years ago. My partner was like, how do you know her? And I'm like, I don't. I'm realizing I don't. I do not know her. I actually don't. And she is still, she is a really good friend to this day. And it's funny because sometimes I forget a lot of the people I consider my closest friends. I'm like, oh my God, we met online.
That's wild. You were just a random square on my Instagram. And now here you are. I'm in your wedding. What is going on? This is crazy.
Bonnie (35:01.937)
Yep. Yep.
Bonnie (35:07.377)
Yeah, right.
Right? And I think, you know, maybe this is also why I really enjoy how you show up too, because this is how I think about it. And my life has changed so much because of Instagram, because of the people that I've met there who are real fucking people. Like we're just here in front of a screen. And I think it's important to me, it's always important to say like, what you see on the screen is actually how weird I am. Like this is important.
Kaili Meyer (35:38.222)
Yes.
Bonnie (35:40.305)
Like if you like me here, then we'll be okay in person. If you don't like me here, I'm gonna be the same in person. So just prepare yourself.
Kaili Meyer (35:48.782)
And I think that's key. So I say the same thing. One of the biggest compliments I get from people is like, you are the same when you show up on your stories. That is who you are in real life. Like my in real life friends will say that's really refreshing. And I, I like that because I feel like it's like a gut check. And I always tell people, especially in the era of personal branding, like if you are a small business right now on Instagram, it's really a personal brand unless you're a product based like you sell clothes.
But if you're a service-based business or a coach or a mentor, that's a personal brand. And there's this whole, it used to be like, people trying to teach you how to be authentic. And now it's trying to teach you how to grow a personal brand. And my thing is like, your personal brand is being personable, like be yourself, be a human. My advice to you is stop thinking about how do I do this? And literally just showcase your true personality.
Bonnie (36:34.897)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Kaili Meyer (36:43.854)
Speak the way you would speak if that person was sitting with you on the couch in the room with you And you'll start to attract the people who love you and want to work with you buy from you Shout you from the rooftops, but the second that you start over and like who do I want to become? What's this persona? You're of course you're going to burn out like imagine having to put on a mask every single day and maintain that And work that's exhausting so
Bonnie (37:11.281)
Mm-hmm.
Kaili Meyer (37:12.366)
My advice is like just literally be yourself and you nailed it. You're not being weird is a differentiator like your your version of weirdness. Other people aren't going to be like that's weird. They're going to be like that is refreshing like thanks fuck that you are showing that people are like this. That's what I want. That's what I'm attracted to and if you hit that and try to be somebody else all of a sudden your community are these people who think you're something you're not.
Bonnie (37:26.737)
Mm-hmm.
Bonnie (37:33.041)
Yeah.
Kaili Meyer (37:39.854)
And when the day comes where you're like, I don't want to be that anymore, your community is going to drop off because now they are like, well, I feel lied to because the person you are now is not the person you've been showing us. And so my biggest piece of advice to everyone is like, just please be yourself. That is what social media is for. Be yourself, be weird, whatever that looks like.
Bonnie (37:54.769)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But there has to be, I mean, I think for you and I, we've been doing this for a second and we can show up on our stories and posts and all the things and say weird things and do weird things, but we've been doing it for a second. And so I think there's a big conversation
Kaili Meyer (38:21.934)
Mm-hmm. Yes.
Bonnie (38:24.753)
to hear the sound of your voice. I make teachers, when I work with teachers, I make them record themselves and listen to themselves. Mm-hmm. It's part of flow school. And so I'm like, you have to figure out how to say things and then you have to like say them, then you have to do them, you have to listen to yourself. It's part of like my sexy Sunday and taking pictures and nude pictures of myself and seeing, like you are yourself in all of those angles.
Kaili Meyer (38:31.118)
and then listen.
Bonnie (38:52.977)
every single angle that somebody takes the picture of you of, even in the one you're like, oh, that's what that part of me looks like. Cool. But that's still me. And you have to, there can be an awkwardness in stepping into that space where you see yourself. And seeing yourself is a process. It's a process to kind of be like, oh, that's how I'm seen. That's what I look like.
Kaili Meyer (39:10.926)
Yes.
Bonnie (39:21.745)
what I sound like, you have to face yourself. You have to like, literally, it's like looking yourself in the mirror and people's discomfort maybe with mirrors too. Like you have to see yourself if you're gonna show up on social media.
Kaili Meyer (39:35.374)
Yeah, and I think there's even another layer to that conversation that if you have a neurodivergent brain, if you are naturally introverted, if you, there are so many layers. I am quote unquote lucky in the sense that I'm quite extroverted. I...
I think there's a level of, I'm blonde hair, blue eyed, white girl, you know, like there are layers that make it easier for me to show up. And so I want it to be clear that if somebody struggles with it or it does feel awkward, it's not them inherently doing something wrong. It's not them being, you know, try harder to be yourself. I do recognize that for some of us, it is just more accepted to be ourselves and it is easier to do that. And I think
Having a background in journalism has informed me, has informed us a little bit better for me because I had to interview people. I had to be on camera. I had to hear my own voice. All of those things are part of my literal education and then first experiences in the job market. And so I do recognize that there is more to it. And to be fair, when I got into the online space, the online space was not.
Bonnie (40:39.665)
Mmm.
Kaili Meyer (40:54.574)
what it is today. It was smaller. Now there, everyone is in the online space and everyone is an influencer, everyone like, and so it is different. I can imagine it's a different experience to join it today and be like, wait a second, it feels like everybody has it figured out, like, what do I do? And there also is this pressure, like, what are you going to do to stand out? What's your differentiator? Like, why should people follow you? And I can I can see where if you're new.
Bonnie (41:01.809)
Yeah.
Kaili Meyer (41:24.334)
You're like, well, I'm literally just trying to like get started. And now you're making me think about what, what am I going to do to stand out? Like, I don't know. And so, yeah, so I do get that.
Bonnie (41:31.409)
Mm. Yeah. Yeah, I like that you're speaking to even your experience in journalism, which, again, you assigned yourself. You're like, I'm going to start a magazine, and now I'm going to do these things. In a way, you're like, OK, Instagram doesn't exist, but I'm going to start a thing and have to enforce myself. There is a literal choosing that has to happen where you say, I'm going to choose this. I'm going to pick it up, and I don't know everything. I don't know what I'm going to need.
Kaili Meyer (41:43.214)
Yeah.
Kaili Meyer (41:54.03)
Yes.
Bonnie (41:59.665)
I don't know that you did not know by choosing that you're going to have to redo everything the night before. You did not know all the people you needed to hire. You did not know. And I think that is an important piece that like there's things that you and I are both like, I don't know, actually. I don't know where that's going to go. I don't know how I'm going to do that yet. I just know that we're going to keep walking forward and it can look like we have our shit figured out. There might be some things that we do. But the reason we do is because...
we've been walking and because we're saying I will keep going. And so there's, there's experience. So if somebody's brand new, they just don't have the experience. You just have to be like, I don't know, but this is how I get experience.
Kaili Meyer (42:30.702)
Yes.
Kaili Meyer (42:41.71)
Yep. I think the biggest lesson, one of the biggest lessons corporate taught me is that no one actually knows what they're doing. So I, as a Thought Capital writer, I was regularly meeting with like our global strategist and our CMO and our CEO of a ginormous company. These people are brilliant. Like these are economists that are informing federal policy.
And the number of times that I just distinctly remember feeling like, this guy has no clue what the fuck he's talking about. Like this is insane to me. It was such a lesson of everyone at every stage is at part of it is acting is just deciding like, I don't know, but I know enough to figure it out. And so I'm gut. It makes sense that it's me and I'm looking around the room like, Oh, it's me. Okay. So I'm leading and I'm just going to figure it out. And I, I,
I think that that applies to small business too. Like the number of DMs I get of people just like assuming I have an answer to a thing or X is so easy for me and I giggle because I'm like, oh no, I don't know where you got that idea. I recognize that it probably looks like I know everything in this realm. I don't, I am figuring it out. I'm always learning. I'm reading a lot. I'm listening to podcasts. I'm talking to other people. I'm asking questions.
And I'm okay with not knowing all of it. I actually love telling people, like that's not my expertise, you should talk to somebody else. Cause what a relief, like, oh, please, somebody else step in. And I think that's another lesson too, like you don't have to know everything. It's okay to be like, I don't know the answer to that.
Bonnie (44:04.913)
Mm-hmm.
Bonnie (44:14.033)
Yes.
Bonnie (44:22.833)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Well, and because sometimes when we might begin, I'm going to speak for like yoga people who are like, everybody can be yoga. Yoga is for everybody. Like anybody can come and practice with me. And I'm like, that's, that could be true. And it also might not be true. I think about it, how my kids, their exposure to yoga looks like what I do, but yoga looks like a lot of different things. And I'm actually fringe compared to like some other yoga.
that exists in the world. Like I am like innovating in a different sort of way, but this is what yoga looks like to them. And so there's just a lot of wiggle room. Yeah, yeah. I do like your, like the prompt, I think that maybe some people will feel if they're starting in social media and starting with an online business of saying, how do I stand out or why should people follow you? And...
As somebody who has been asked this, I've gone to Ohio four different times. I love people in Ohio, uh, at different studios and over between the years of like 28, I think it was 2018, March of 2018, all the way through to like January of like 23, like spread out between those years. I've been there four times.
One of those times I was staying with a friend and her husband who doesn't follow my Instagram, but he's there, I'm like staying in his house, right? So again, random people that I'm just staying with, meeting online. And he's like, so people they flew you out to Ohio, like, why you? Like aren't there other people here that can like teach yoga and do this? And so like, why, like, why you?
Bonnie (46:09.809)
And I love that question. I love like how much I've thought about that question and where I was on the spot, like sitting in their living room, staying in their home, eating their food. And he's like, so what's so special about you? And like, he just, he said it in a very conversational way, is very, but it like, like, it's not like I can just like, be like, well, I'm just not gonna answer that one. Like you're sitting there with them. And I don't know exactly.
Kaili Meyer (46:34.35)
Yeah.
Bonnie (46:38.289)
What I said then, I have much more clarity now why people might be interested in working with me. But I still did it, even if I didn't know what that answer was. And I even think about the phrase, you know, I'm here to help teachers own the hell out of their voice. And I didn't start saying that till this past July, which is not even nine months ago right now.
And it's, I think already what I was doing, but I just didn't say that phrase. And then I said it randomly in a video. And so you just keep showing up. And I think about where you are, where you had no idea how to connect with anybody online. And now you have created some amazing resources and can see a vision of other things you want to create or would be really helpful to create because you just keep moving forward and you start to refine it over time. So the...
paralyzing nature of having to figure all of it out of like every single thing is annoying and dumb and actually doesn't work. Ha ha ha.
It's like, well, just walk in.
Kaili Meyer (47:48.526)
Very true.
Yeah, and I think at the core of that is you don't have to know the answer, but you have to trust it exists. So you have to trust like in yourself and you have to trust in your expertise or in your perspective or in the way you treat people. Like you have to trust that even if I can't articulate it, I know it exists and I will find it. And I think that's easier said than done. It's easy to look back and apply it, right?
Bonnie (47:59.313)
Mm-hmm.
Bonnie (48:14.833)
Mm-hmm.
Kaili Meyer (48:20.11)
hindsight 50 50 and in the moment I'm sure people are like, wow, how helpful thanks, but it is true. It's like you might not. You might need to experience a few more things you might need to work with a few more people before you can acutely articulate what it is about you that makes you worth choosing you investing in you working with all you need to know right now is that there is something and we're gonna uncover it, but it exists and so if you can trust
in yourself and in your ability to help people in whatever area that you work in, like the answer will eventually make its way to your keyboard or to your tongue, just might not be there right now.
Bonnie (48:59.505)
Mm-hmm. I love this. So if somebody is starting an online business and they're stepping into this space, what are your top three suggestions of do these things, please?
Kaili Meyer (49:19.406)
I have like five great friends who are lawyers. I have five people in my life who are lawyers, specifically intellectual property lawyers. And so it would be, I would be remiss not to say. Make sure that you have legal in line. This does not mean make sure you do all of the things. It just means like, make sure you have contracts written by an attorney.
Bonnie (49:21.585)
Okay, you can do five. No. Okay.
Kaili Meyer (49:48.366)
especially if you're going to be exchanging anything for money, which is business. So number one, or at least in the top three or five things is like have legal ducks in a row from the beginning. Please. Or else you will have to backtrack. Second thing, think about where you want to spend your time. I think for those of us who spend most of our time on Instagram,
the idea like every time somebody asks me like, are you on LinkedIn? I'm like, what? Why would I? That sounds awful. No, I'm not on LinkedIn. But for some people, LinkedIn is where their people are. They should be on LinkedIn. So I would say up there on the list of things to do and consider is like, figure out where you wanna be and where you wanna be shouldn't just be based on like, well, I enjoy LinkedIn. Okay, but if the people you're gonna work with aren't on LinkedIn.
in the kindest way, like you can't be either then, like that we need to be on a different platform. So figure out where you're gonna be, where visibility makes sense.
Kaili Meyer (50:59.982)
And then I would say, try some things and mess up a couple of times before you pay anyone to tell you what else to do. Because I think too many new business owners hand their power over to a coach or to a mentor or to a mastermind and they think to themselves, well, this makes sense. Like I should, this should be one of the first things I do. And maybe there's an argument for that.
Bonnie (51:10.769)
Hmm.
Kaili Meyer (51:27.214)
I think you need to learn a couple things, figure a couple things out, figure out what values make sense for you, what you are and aren't willing to do, or else you're going to be so susceptible to just the ideas of somebody else. And you're going to join a coaching program and all of a sudden you're going to be like, oh, those are my thoughts and beliefs because you didn't come in with any. You came in blank slate, teach me everything you know.
Well, when you leave, it's going to be more likely that you're not actually leaving with your own thoughts. You're leaving with the thoughts and ideas of that person you just paid. And now you'll never fully know what you would have done. Whereas if you spend however long, let's say six months, just figuring it out, failing, learning what you love to do, what's a total no for you. And then you invest in mentorship. You are applying their advice through a different lens and set up just like.
Bonnie (52:22.641)
Hmm
Kaili Meyer (52:25.038)
It's Bible, whatever they say is Bible. We've been doing this for six years and the number of people who break down in tears on inquiry calls with me because they're like, I need you to redo my web copy because I spent so much money on a course or on a program that got me nowhere. Like I need to start selling things. Like it's this desperation to make back money they spent on a really crappy education investment.
And so I think that would be a top piece of advice.
Bonnie (52:58.833)
Mmm.
Bonnie (53:03.057)
This third one, let's hang out here for a second. Because as you are talking about it, if somebody has no business background, I'm not speaking for myself, but just as like some other person has no business background, to have a desire to learn from somebody how to do business online makes sense. Like that totally makes sense. Say like, I have no idea.
Kaili Meyer (53:09.006)
Yeah.
Bonnie (53:30.801)
what I'm doing, somebody tell me what to do. And to not maybe have any awareness of how much different business coaches costs or what is available out there to learn that maybe is like a choose your own adventure, like a replay program where you can just do it on your own pace. That's gonna be a couple hundred dollars versus like lots of thousands of dollars. Like to slowly kind of drip into somebody's community versus just, you know.
a lot of money drop in, somebody might not know where to. And so I think the idea of going to somebody else as an expert, it feels safe, right? It can feel safe in that way. I'd be like, somebody else is gonna tell me what to do. And I am thinking especially for people who are going to being a yoga teacher, they might have practiced yoga for a long time. I also have talked to people who they practice yoga like a first time and they're like,
Yeah, I think I'll teach this." And they jump immediately into a training and then they become a yoga teacher without, other people say they've practiced yoga for 20 years and then they decide to be a teacher. Those are very different types of teachers then. And a lot of the people that I work with have done a teacher training and have been using some of those things from that training and trying to figure out now, like part of what flow school is, is I'm like,
And how do we actually move? And how can we use the tradition along with like your creativity, along with like movement science and put this together. And so it is helping people refine that language and their self in it. And so I like that analogy along with business. Again, this goes to risk taking and saying, you're going to lose some money. You have to spend money in order to make money.
and you're going to make mistakes that are going to cost you money. It will happen. I even yesterday I paid, I paid to get out of a retreat contract, but it's not going to happen this year. And I'm like, well, there's $1,000 for you. Thank you for that. So there's a thousand dollars that I donated to them now. Great.
Kaili Meyer (55:47.374)
And I think I have two things to add. I think if there is something highly specific you want to learn, like in the sense of, I just don't even know how to set up a funnel. I need the applicable information of like, what is the platform? What is flow desk? What is click up? That's different than.
what a lot of people in the education space, it's more like, Oh, I'll just teach you how to have a 100 K or six figure business that is so like abstract and so non specific that that's kind of more the the investment I'm talking about might not be the best idea for somebody new. Now, if you're brand new, and you're like, No, no, no, like,
Bonnie (56:23.185)
Mm-hmm.
Bonnie (56:34.353)
Okay.
Kaili Meyer (56:39.63)
I just want to make sure that I fundamentally am setting things that like, what platforms? To me, that makes sense, but a couple of things, like always check free Google first. Like I'm begging you. I promise you a lot of these like beginner programs, nothing they're teaching in there can't be found, especially if it's very generalized. It can be found on Google. So check Google first, check people's content first.
And then know exactly what you want out of that investment before you just like hope that you get it. Because I think education and coaching can be a great investment if it's an ethical coach and you're like, well, I wanna learn this. This person is an expert at emails and their six week program is only about emails. That makes sense.
But if it's like, well, I just started this business last week and I need to replace my salary and being a overnight six figure earner sounds nice. And so I'm going to join. That is probably where you're going to find the most trouble.
Bonnie (57:45.617)
Mm-hmm. One I like you've been talking about on Instagram this last couple of days about people and is it normal to spend how much money did two people say?
Kaili Meyer (57:55.214)
$84,000 a year on an entry level with this.
Kaili Meyer (58:05.23)
coach.
Bonnie (58:06.481)
Wow. Did they share how much money they've made?
Kaili Meyer (58:12.206)
No, no, but I did do a little bit more digging and there is like a specific
Bonnie (58:13.393)
Okay.
Kaili Meyer (58:20.91)
triangle if you will of
people who got really big at the beginning of the online business space, who then started, uh, essentially coaching MLM. And typically these, it makes sense because if I pay you an exorbitant amount of money, 30 K, but you paid your mentor, 20 K and that it's, we're all having to now charge the next person more or a lot of money because well, I have to make up for the investment I just made in you.
Bonnie (58:46.705)
Mmmm
Bonnie (58:55.217)
Oh.
Kaili Meyer (58:55.31)
And so of course your coach is telling you, we'll raise your prices because for that coach, for you to be able to say it was worth it to invest in this coach, you need to see an ROI. So it's not necessarily that, I think the thing that upsets me the most in this space is then people start taking accountability for the wins of their people. But it's like,
That's it's not causation. It could just be correlation. It could just be they needed somebody to verbally believe in them because when they go home, their partner doesn't or they don't have a partner. And so they really are driven by words. And so they're paying you 30K to tell them you're worth it, be confident. And I'm not saying that's, I'm not, listen, great. If you need to pay for it, great. But I think then when the advice is like, well, now you charge someone 30K.
Bonnie (59:40.593)
Mm-hmm.
Kaili Meyer (59:49.55)
And now you just got your investment back. So it was worth it. And I'll go tell all your friends that working with me was the reason that you now have a six figure business. It just gets very convoluted and messy. And I think it's praise on beginners. It preys on, I mean, think about 2020, 2021, even 2022, the layoffs, the mass layoffs.
Bonnie (01:00:02.257)
Hmm... Yes.
Kaili Meyer (01:00:16.59)
So now all of a sudden we have people who don't have a job. They can't get back into the job market and they need to replace their income because they have to feed their children. They have to pay their mortgage. They have to put gas in their vehicle. They are desperate. And if you put in front of their face like, well, I can help you make six figures by the end of the year, that person is gonna be like, this is worth it, put it on a credit card, go into debt because eventually I will make six figures.
Bonnie (01:00:40.081)
Hmm.
Kaili Meyer (01:00:41.934)
It's not regulated though, so when you don't make six figures, there's nothing you can do. You just now are like, well, what's the deal?
Bonnie (01:00:47.313)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's so many pieces to hold as an entrepreneur if you're gonna have your own business. Like being able to sit with yourself, you're gonna spend so much time alone. And I like that you even mentioned if you just need somebody to verbally believe in you. I think it's so meaningful to show up with people and have them be willing to talk about the things I wanna talk about for as long as I wanna talk about. I will pay people.
so that I have people to talk about things with. I'm like, I just need somebody who's stoked with me, who's not gonna be annoyed at the amount of time that I can literally joyfully dive into this and then have some reflection back. And that is so meaningful, but you're gonna spend a lot of time alone. You're gonna have a lot of choices to make. You're so many decisions. You're gonna have so much behind the scenes that people never see. They do not understand.
what it's like to organize things and make things flow. They don't know. A website is never done. It's never done. Ever.
Um, and, uh, and the ability to hold yourself in it because it's takes a long time. It takes a long time. So.
Kaili Meyer (01:02:03.502)
Yeah. I think the fourth thing on the list of what I would tell someone is if you are going to invest, invest in tangible things. So
web copy, web design, a VA, like somebody who you know what you're paying for or a program, like I said, where you know exactly what you wanna get out of it. And that's something I appreciate about you is when you are selling things like Flow School, you're not just like, ooh, like conceptually, like here's what you're gonna get out of it. Somebody is gonna be able to read your sales page or read your content and know, okay.
Here's who she is, here's why I should trust her, and here are the things I can get out of this. And then decide, are those tangible outcomes what I want and need right now? And so I think it's just being as much, anger's not the right word, but.
I'm gonna use it as much anger as I feel towards certain.
ways some business owners promote themselves. There also needs to be an equal responsibility on a consumer. You have to take responsibility and accountability over, well, I made this investment, I should have looked more into it. I should have validated their claims. I should have spoken to somebody who joined their program before and made sure that this was relevant.
Bonnie (01:03:21.617)
Mm.
Kaili Meyer (01:03:38.958)
You know, and so it's not just on business owners to be ethical and to ethically market their things. It's on us as consumers to make sure that what we're getting into is actually what we are meaning to get into.
Bonnie (01:03:51.057)
Yeah, yeah, totally. I appreciate that too. Like it's, we're here as a two way street, sort of like we're choosing it again. We have this choosing power. Absolutely. I do think it's interesting too. I'm gonna draw this analogy, the line between yoga world and business world here again. People ask me who to take their 200 hour training with. And I say 200 hours, their initial training before they're gonna step in and be a teacher. I'm like, that's a lot of time. You're gonna spend a lot.
of time with somebody learning from them. So make sure you try to learn from them before that. Do you like the sound of their voice? Do you like the pace that they move at? Do you like the type of yoga they do? Get to know who that person is before you give them a lot of your time and money. And I think the same way, the same lesson can be used for online business. And I'm gonna use you as the example saying,
Kaili Meyer (01:04:27.822)
Yeah.
Bonnie (01:04:49.489)
I've invested, I've given you a fair amount of my money in the past year. But the first things were then buying some templates and saying, okay, I want to know how to do this thing and I can purchase one small thing and then have like, oh, actually that was fantastic. That really helped give me clarity around, you know, X, Y, Z. And then I could invest more in things. And so you can do the same thing in so many areas of life to say, what's a small thing that will give me more information?
help me move forward, then help me make a better decision. And just apply that everywhere.
Kaili Meyer (01:05:24.718)
which is why showing up as yourself is so important to bring this full circle because people are doing that. They're coming, especially on social media and websites, they're coming to your social media, your Instagram, your TikTok and your website to get a vibe, to figure out what you're like. And if you're showing up differently, then you're actually gonna be like, if you're, especially in the educational space, so mentorship, coaching, if you're portraying something different than what they're gonna see and feel when they're working with you.
Bonnie (01:05:38.417)
Yeah.
Kaili Meyer (01:05:54.67)
You're just creating distrust, which is never good in business. The second somebody side-eyes something, I mean, it's over for you and them. It's gonna be really hard to bring them back. So just exactly what you just said, consume more of that person before giving them your dollars. And then on the flip side, make sure that the content you're putting out that people are gonna be consuming reflects honestly who you are and the type of business that you're running.
Bonnie (01:06:22.321)
Right, because there are gonna people that will side eye you no matter who you are. So you want to make it clear. You're like, okay, you're the side eye people, you're not for me. Cool.
Kaili Meyer (01:06:31.918)
Yes, you want to, you want to slide out.
Yes, you want the side eye to be valid. Like it is also good that there is a group of people who do not like you. That's good. We don't want everyone to like us. If everyone likes us, we are doing something wrong.
Bonnie (01:06:48.017)
Yeah, and it's too, that's too much. Again, you're like outsourced, like somebody else take care of these people because I don't have enough of me to go around. Yeah, absolutely. Okay, I wanna share with something that I learned from you because I think it will help other people. And that is this, just a year ago, I was like, you know what? I think I need to redesign my website. Let's rebuild a whole website. I have built so many websites in my day.
Kaili Meyer (01:06:56.75)
Yeah. Yes.
Bonnie (01:07:17.969)
My first website was on Blogger when you had to like go into the code and I loved it. I felt so successful and nerdy by like going into the back end and like figuring out where I needed to like highlight a chunk and then like put it back in for it to do a thing. Of course, we are far away from that now, which I don't mind because it takes more time.
Kaili Meyer (01:07:27.822)
Yeah.
Kaili Meyer (01:07:37.038)
Yeah.
Kaili Meyer (01:07:41.038)
giving my space.
Bonnie (01:07:42.545)
Oh, I didn't even use my space, but like.
Kaili Meyer (01:07:47.598)
That was the original MySpace taught us to code.
Bonnie (01:07:51.569)
Yeah, I didn't. I just went right to blogger as I had, um, my, um, X at the time was like, I think you would like blogging. I was like, well, you know, and then here I am today. So it worked. This is the trickle, the trickle effect happened, but. So I've, I've built several websites and I've just opened up a new template. Now I, okay, apply a template and then fill in the words as I go and like figure it out.
and you know, just show up. What does it feel like today? So I think it was interesting then last year to have found you and to then be paying attention to the way that you were saying different things and the copy of things and as the copywriter side, but you, again, let's talk about like your 250 launches. You see a lot of different people's personality.
you are, and I love when you talk about the nerdiness of how does a copywriter help really meet somebody's language? Like the amount of time you study that person and how they talk and what they have to offer and the words that they use, like all of these things that go into like, it's like you're an actor. You study and embody somebody else to then deliver. And so you get to see so much, so many different personalities and then support them. So that's
fascinating. And so for myself in my redesign of my website, and, you know, again, I just opened up a template and think, okay, so what am I writing here? And so my big takeaway, because I know so many people who are building websites or want to build a website or feel like they need to build a website. And if you're one of those people who are like listening to this, right?
You're copy first.
Kaili Meyer (01:09:52.845)
Yes, please.
Bonnie (01:09:53.936)
Like that is like the simplest thing. Like, Kaylee, I can't even tell you. Like, just write your copy first. And that doesn't even make sense. I mean, that wouldn't have made sense, but I think watching you and watching how you talk about things and break things down, it makes so much sense to me in my like logical brain that I feel forever grateful. And I'm like, just people just write it out first. And I think we want it.
to look pretty, right? We're like, it has to like look pretty, but it actually has to say something worth looking at. And so the words have to come first and I love the way that you organize it, but I just wanna say like, if anything, like I've learned a lot of things from you and from the collabs that you've done and from the things you put out, but even if I could pick one thing that has made my life better.
I would put that as one of those things. It's very small.
Kaili Meyer (01:10:51.982)
Well, I love that. That's one of those things that the further you get along in as a copywriter, I lose touch a little bit with what regular people, non-copyrighters know. And so that's something that I try to like say once a month on Instagram because it's like.
After a while, I was like, I thought this was just obvious. Like I've talked about it. And then I realized like, no, why would that be obvious to somebody who's not a copywriter? That's weird. Like I'm sure there's so much in yoga that you're like, this is obvious. But to me, I would be like, what? Like that's fascinating. That's crazy. And so yes, if you think about it logically though, like you just said, it makes sense in your logical brain.
The entire purpose of design is to amplify a message, is to make that message more enjoyable to read. And so we need to design around our words, not put our words into our design. Because what I always tell people, the analogy I use is let's pretend you're single and you're about to go on a date and you arrive at the bar to meet your date and they are looking, I mean, you see them and you're like, I've won, this is incredible, great.
But then they start talking and you're like, what the hell? Like either the words coming out of their mouth are just not it. They have nothing to say. Or it just doesn't make sense. Like you're meeting with a finance bro who's chirping about Bitcoin and you're just like, how is this? What's going on? That's how it feels when somebody gets to your website and it looks beautiful, but they start reading the words and they're just like, what is this? But.
you meet somebody who you connect with on an intellectual and emotional level, and you're like, their fashion and vibe could use a little work. That's fixable, right? Like we can, that's fine. We can either accept it or we can work with it a little bit. We can, you know, take a shopping later on or something. But at least like the core of who they are, the message, what you're connecting with is there. So yes, both are so important. We ideally want the full package. We want somebody
Kaili Meyer (01:13:05.038)
when we're using this analogy, we want somebody who their words, their conversation, their ideas, their thoughts, their perspective aligns with us or intrigues us or makes us curious. And we also want to visually be into them.
Bonnie (01:13:18.897)
Mm-hmm.
Kaili Meyer (01:13:20.398)
but it is going to be more difficult to commit to someone or to a brand if the message, the core isn't there, but the visual is. And so we just wanna make sure that our words are there first and then the design is around them.
Bonnie (01:13:37.841)
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, one thing's beautiful, but beauty in all the way. It's like, tell me pretty words, look nice, like all of the things.
Kaili Meyer (01:13:51.47)
And I can see how it would be confusing when you're new because number one, words, it is interesting being a copywriter who primarily uses Instagram because words aren't visual. Like they're not visually, like I'm not a web designer. I can't just put up a reel of a website I just created, right? And it's visual and it's fun. And it's going like, ooh, that's sexy. And this is something I have a lot of friends who are brand and web designers. We talk about this a lot.
For whatever reason, people expect to pay more for design than they expect to pay for copy. And it's, on both sides of the coin, it's wild to me, because...
your message is what people are gonna connect with. I'm not even saying copy should be more expensive than design, but it should be the same. And you should want the words to come first. And any professional designer should tell you, hey, we need to have your words first before I will book you as a client. But I can see how when you're new, the sexy fun thing is the design. And a lot of people think to themselves,
Well, I can write it, but I can't design, but I can write. And I would just encourage people to think about copywriting way differently than, oh, I can write. Like, what can you write? Were you good in English class? Did you like writing reports in college? Because that is not at all the same thing. Like you're a journaler, you write not at all the same thing. Copywriting is more understanding of sales, consumer psychology, consumer behavior, and marketing.
Bonnie (01:15:14.225)
Mmm.
Kaili Meyer (01:15:30.254)
than it is being a good writer.
Bonnie (01:15:32.369)
Mm-hmm. Yes, yes. Then it's this because I actually majored in English in undergrad because I was feeling pressured to choose something. I was like, well, I can read and write, so I will do English. That's a terrible reason to choose a major. I didn't love it. I've chosen something different now. But I have a degree, so that's great. And I do do a lot of writing. But it is very different.
I, and it's simpler. That's what I would say. Like it's really straightforward once I'm like, oh, I just need to, I need to share these things. We'll put a little juge into like, you know, we can write, you know, write in my voice and stuff here. Well, it's all voice, but like, I think learning some more of the strategy behind what, why, how of writing to actually sell and to help people understand what they are purchasing and how they can participate.
is that actually easier once you know the format? You're like, oh, OK, this is why we're doing it this way. It takes less creative energy in a way. I don't really want to say that. It does and it doesn't. It's a different thing. It's just a different thing. Yeah. I mean, you still don't want to do it boring. So there's still a creativity in it. And you don't want to be like, I don't know. Bring your own personality into the language of it. But.
Kaili Meyer (01:16:48.27)
Yeah.
Bonnie (01:17:01.681)
there's a structure to it that gives an ease than just an open page of like write a story. Like it's different in that way.
Kaili Meyer (01:17:11.918)
Yeah, and I think this is an important time to acknowledge the difference between copy and content. If you love writing and you love engaging and telling your story, that's content. So like writing your own Instagram captions, writing your own, you know, nurture emails, I do think most people can do that if they enjoy it and if they love it.
Bonnie (01:17:17.105)
Mm.
Kaili Meyer (01:17:39.342)
The difference between copy and content is copy is words that intentionally sell. And so for us to persuade people to sell, we need to do more than write pretty words. We need to understand, well, what does it actually take for a person to want to buy something? And we don't have to guess this. This is what's great. Copywriters aren't guessing. Well,
great copywriters are not guessing. They're looking at the research. Their neuro marketing is a thing. Like we know what is going on in the physical brain when people are making purchasing decisions. Copywriters have studied that. They know how to write in what order, in what way to activate those parts of the brain to convince someone to purchase something. And so loving writing, yeah, you might be able to write something really fun and it might make somebody excited.
but are you engaging the right parts of the brain to make them want to purchase it? And I think that's the difference between, oh, I love writing and oh no, I'm a well-versed copywriter. I know how to get people to spend money.
Bonnie (01:18:38.833)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, totally. Well, you nerd out for a second and talk about the four types of buyers because I think that there may be people that will listen to our conversation who have, that this will be the first time they will ever hear about it.
Kaili Meyer (01:18:49.486)
Yes, ever had biotypes. Okay, so there are, I'm gonna see what the internet is saying right now for the main names, because when I was in taking psych classes, there, yeah, I just looked it up. So are you, meaning, expressive, amiable, analytical, are those the ones you're talking about? There's so many different names that people, some people think there's four biotypes, some people think there's five.
Bonnie (01:19:14.737)
Mm-hmm.
Bonnie (01:19:20.209)
Oh.
Kaili Meyer (01:19:20.782)
So do you know which ones you're, are we talking about analytical, amiable, driver, expressive? Okay. So analytical buyers, these are the people who, as the name sounds, they're motivated by logic. Backpedaling really quick. There are two parts of our brain. There is like the old brain, and then there's the new brain, right? The old brain is actually where we make our buying decisions. It's kind of like, it's the part of your brain that you're not aware of. So the subconscious.
Bonnie (01:19:24.337)
Yes, those ones.
Kaili Meyer (01:19:50.286)
And then the new brain is where we can do logic. We can run numbers. We can do math. We can figure out if something makes sense. A lot of people think that most people are analytical buyers. We need to logic our way into their wallets. We need to convince them this is a good investment. That's not actually true. If we're looking at these four buyer types, there's only one type of person who needs that and it's an analytical buyer. The rest of us need something different. And a lot of us are kind of a combo.
But analytical buyers are looking for logic. So they're looking for, okay, what's the ROI? How did you come to this price point? What's included? These are the people who need the bullet points of like, you're spending $997 and here's what you're getting in return. It needs to make logical sense to them. And so they are gonna gather all the facts and then they're gonna make a decision. Amiobull buyers are people who they care more about
Kaili Meyer (01:20:49.838)
it being a stable, secure, connected decision, right? And so they are people who are going to want to look around and be like, well, what are other people doing? This is why if you've seen sticky note walls where when you're having a course and you're saying like, here's who's joining it, that works really well for these people because as humans, things feel more secure to us if other people are doing them. So it's like, well, I don't wanna be the only one.
But if I look around and I see, well, she's doing it, she's doing it, I trust this person, Bonnie, I love Bonnie. If Bonnie's doing it, then I'm in. That's what those people are looking for. Driver buyers. There are a lot of driver buyers in the online space. And so these are people who are really motivated to buy by respect, by expertise. And so they are going to be looking for
confidence essentially they're gonna be really into let's just talk about Women in business for a second the women who show up and like fully own their space and they're like no I know what I'm talking about. Here's my background. Here's like the proof and these buyer types are motivated by like That vibe I would almost say and so I think you probably attract a lot of driver buyers and they still need proof like they still want the
Bonnie (01:22:06.289)
Hmm.
Kaili Meyer (01:22:15.854)
proof that this is a good decision. So in the online space, it might be like, well, you have a large engaged following. There's people commenting under your videos saying how helpful XYZ was. And so that is creating a respect for you as a leader. And that buyer type is like, well, that's what I need is I need that respect. And then expressive buyers want,
Bonnie (01:22:32.561)
Hmm.
Kaili Meyer (01:22:43.662)
kind of approval, they want to feel like they are making a good decision, but almost in the opinion of somebody else, if that makes sense. So they want to feel important. These are the people who are probably DMing you a lot before they buy something. They want to be like close to you. They want to be associated with you. They want to know that like you value them too. And then they'll they'll pretty much.
Bonnie (01:22:54.449)
Hmm.
Kaili Meyer (01:23:11.47)
do anything, they'll swipe their card. If they feel that it's like, well, I'm important as well, this person values me as well. And so those are the people that is important that you're spending time nurturing. You're not just like asking for the sale, you're answering their questions, you're being warm. That's what those people need to make a confident buying decision. And the cool thing is, is so there's a school of thought that
You need to figure out what your audience is and your audience is one or two of these. And then you need to make sure all your content and your copy is directed at that. I don't approach it that way. I think it's pretty impossible to figure that out. I think you can have an idea of, you can track like what type of content converted and then you can figure out like, well, what was the strategy? Is the content that converted for me when I share just what's included and then I'm attracting analytical buyers. Okay. So then my audience is analytical.
Maybe you can do that, but what I like to do, especially in email and sales pages, is like give love to all of them. Like I do think that we should share what's included, the features, not just the benefits, but then I also think we should share the benefits because that's gonna attract the people who aren't logical, but they wanna feel close to you. And then I do think that we should run a Q&A or an Instagram live or give out free value through a workshop or a masterclass as a top of funnel.
because the people who really need to be nurtured and warmed up, that's what they're gonna need. So I think, yes, understanding buyer types is important because you can kind of look at a piece of sales content and ask yourself, like, well, have I done something for all of them? But I do think, oh, and I feel like I'm gonna get drug through the coals for this one. I do think there's like sometimes too much pressure to like know your buyer types and like know exactly what.
Because I think a general understanding of them is important because this is psychology, this is just understanding consumer behavior. I think getting too pigeonholed in it can start to change the way you're showing up and you're just like thinking too hard about it. And it can't get in the way of like making magic, honestly, and making content that you love and writing copy that feels like you and all of that. So yes.
Bonnie (01:25:26.865)
Mmm.
Kaili Meyer (01:25:37.326)
understanding that as humans, there are general rules, but not all of us are the same, right? Like my best friend, my childhood best friend, her and I shop completely differently, like completely differently. I love going to the mall with her because the things that attract us are so different. And I'm like, that is hilarious that that got you because I'm looking at it going like, oh, I see the marketing. I know what we're doing here and I've turned off. My partner.
The number, he went through a phase where like every Instagram ad got him. The, there was like a three month phase where we were getting, especially as it pertained to dogs, we were getting so many like pools in the mail. None of them worked. And I was like, what, what are, what is this like flower that you put in your dryer and it's going to attract all the hair because it's coming out empty. And my, my clothes are still covered in husky fur.
And that's when I realized like, oh, he is a totally different buyer type than me. This man, all he needs is excitement. All he needs is like for something to be shiny and cool. And he's in, whereas for me, I'm very analytical, logical, but I also am like, amiable, I need to like look around and be like, all right, like show me the proof. I am not a driver buyer who's like, if I love you and respect you, I'll pay anything.
Bonnie (01:26:38.449)
Mmm.
Kaili Meyer (01:27:01.614)
I love and respect a lot of people who I've not given money to.
Bonnie (01:27:05.169)
Mm. I love this conversation. Thank you for sharing that. I mean, it's a lot of information, especially anybody rewind, re-listen to that, all of it. Because this was not even language I had. And I think this is part of the gift of the online space and online learning is that we have exposure to so...
much language to describe our experience or business or ways of learning or ways of being or what we have to offer, you might not even have the language yet. And there's other people you have to learn from to say like, oh, this is what I have to give or this is what I need to do. And so learning about for buyer types, which is a part of marketing and whatnot, but not having come from a business background myself, learning about these types of things which are kind of commonplace.
for copywriters, for good copywriters, as you asterisk that, good copywriters, has been really, has been really fun, I guess I'd say. It's been really fun for me to learn. And I often try to approach something that I have to learn and say like, okay, this is a fun problem to solve. This is something else that I have to learn and integrate and say like, how do I figure this thing out? And...
The way that you speak to that and even the exposure to that has been helpful for me in how I share and what I share in the order that I share it in. And it's given me insight to listen to the people that are showing up. I think of in real life, flow school in specific. So I was just in Florida this past week and I was on a call with them beforehand. Not everybody always comes to the call, but I...
I have a zoom call, so anybody who's coming, I'm like, you can ask me questions. Like let's, let's talk about things. And then the people are showing up. You're like, I need to know the details. Like what is this? And this, this, right. And I'm like, cool. Like I can totally meet you there. That's fine. If our brains all work in different ways, that totally makes sense. Cause we're human. That's great. And just the respect I think that it brings to say it doesn't have to be one type.
Kaili Meyer (01:29:16.75)
Yeah.
Bonnie (01:29:18.257)
And you can think differently than me, and I can still give you an answer that can make this feel like hopefully easy for you to make a decision to know if this is a yes or no for you. And so just even the four buyers types has been super clarifying for me.
Kaili Meyer (01:29:34.606)
Oh, I love that.
Bonnie (01:29:36.113)
Yeah, yeah. Well, and then speaking to that, I just wanna like, let's pivot into like what you have to offer because one of the things that I am enjoying right now that you are currently in the launch of, dun, dun, dun. All right, so you have launched, actually, do you wanna share it? You've launched because your excitement is gonna be even better than mine.
Kaili Meyer (01:29:57.806)
Yes. So it's called the digital sellers copy kit. It's exactly what it sounds like. It's for people who sell anything digital, right? So whether this is you have a template shop or you're running a course or a program and it is kind of a hybrid situation. So it's built on Notion. If you're not familiar with Notion, it's just a really beautiful organized platform where you can put everything in one place and it's not a Kajabi. Like it's not a course platform. It's not a video platform. It's everything.
And so the copy kit in particular walks you through all the phases of a launch because I find that people get really excited about building something. They make it. And then they're like, wait, well, how do I get people to buy it? And they hear people talking about, well, you launch it or you create a funnel. And it's like, well, what does that mean? And so there's a lot of programs or courses out there that teach you to launch, but then you're left.
Like, okay, well now I understand the launch, but now I have to make the things. I have to write the sales page, I have to write the emails. So it took six years of, like we talked about in the beginning, having launched to 250 different products. And this ranges from a template to a $6,000 course. And I said, what are the main things that everybody pretty much has to do at any stage? So this is like email marketing, top of funnel.
sales page, social, and I said, well, in what order does it make sense to do that in? And how long should we give ourselves to do that so that we're not feeling overwhelmed, we're not feeling burnt out? Put it all onto a board so you see, these are the steps you need to take. Then each step is broken down into what it is, why we're doing it, and how we're gonna do it. And if it's a step that involves copy creation, so a sales page or an email,
template is always linked. So it's not just the why we're doing it and how we're doing or the what we're doing and why we're doing it. It's how you're going to do it and literally here's 90% of it done for you. The reason I created it is because number one paying a copywriter to do all of that just being transparent here is incredibly expensive and if you're new or you're selling something low ticket say you're selling a $97 product which can do wonders for you. Do not sleep on low ticket.
Kaili Meyer (01:32:23.118)
investing 10 to 15 K in a copywriter, then running the math in your brain, it's like, holy shit, I'm gonna have to sell a lot before I get seen ROI. So this is the digital ex-tellers copy kit is something that anybody can use. You can rinse and repeat. And I was just running the numbers today. So let me make sure I get these accurate. So if you got it at the...
the discounted price, which is $12.97, let's say you have a $97 product, you have to sell 14 of those products to start making an ROI, which is not a lot. If your product is $197, you have to sell seven of them. And if you're selling something that's $497, you have to sell three. So it's everything you need to launch and sell any product over and over. And...
I kind of get, well, I've had a few people ask me like, well, aren't you afraid that now people aren't gonna work with you? They don't need you. And I'm like, listen, I can't write launch copy for every single person, but I really truly believe that every single person deserves access to the experience of successfully launching something. I think it builds confidence. And what I know is that if somebody can do this one, two or three times, gain the confidence.
Bonnie (01:33:32.625)
Mmm.
Kaili Meyer (01:33:43.246)
Each time they're going to do better, they're going to build something better, they're going to make more money. And then eventually they're going to get to a place where they're like, actually, I want to be totally hands off for this launch. And they will then work with somebody like me or me. But until then, they shouldn't be kind of left to like figure it out themselves. So that's that's where that came from. And you're right, I'm very excited about it. I'm very proud of it. It's something that.
Bonnie (01:34:00.689)
Hmm.
Kaili Meyer (01:34:10.286)
I truly believe is the best thing that I've created. Had people test it, that's really important to me. All of the products I make before I put it on the shelf, so to speak, I have people test it and then tell me like, what would you change? What did you love? What did you not love? Because it's important to me that if people are gonna give me their money, it's worth it. And yeah, so very excited about it.
Bonnie (01:34:13.937)
Mmm.
Bonnie (01:34:35.217)
Mm. Oh, see, I just, I love the abundance that you arrive with, right? And even hearing some of your background bunny story, you're like, I'm not going to, I'm going to be able to afford the shoes. I'm going to figure this out so that I can do this. Like there's an abundance mindset that you have. And so in this way of like, well, aren't you afraid? Like, isn't there fear here? And you're like, no, there's actually no fear here. This is actually going to create more. And I think if anything, it actually creates proof, Kaylee, because people can look at that list and be like,
oh my gosh, like I can do this, but this is a lot. And this is what a copywriter does, like all of this for me, because I think it's also, there's so many people coming into the online space, they don't know even what it means to have a copywriter and to hire somebody to do things. So then to see like the list and say, this is a lot, like this is like all of the things, like this is truly what you wouldn't have to.
touch any of these things if you hired somebody. So I think it also gives a proof and is a low ticket compared to hiring a copywriter where you could see that. So, yeah, so I'm zero concerned about your ability to keep generating income and revenue for yourself by offering this. And if anything, it just, I love that, I love how proud of it you are and.
Like that's, I think what lights me up about knowing you in this space too, is I love watching people be proud of what they're doing because you can feel that. And I am not making templates for copywriting, but like I love being able to use yours. And, and it's not my expertise or what I'm trying to share with the world, but like your joy for it is.
Stoke for me to have joy in whatever it is that I'm doing. And I love that that exists in the relationships that we build online. Mm, mm, mm.
Kaili Meyer (01:36:37.998)
Yeah, I love that. So fun. It is so yeah, I think it's such a it's an honor to witness people. My favorite part of my job is being next to women primarily as they're like, literally creating their reality right in front of my face. And they're saying like, can you help me spread the word? Can you help me get people into this program or help me transmute visitors to my site to clients? I'm like,
Hell yes, let's do that. That's so fun. And it is really cool. I remember I wrote down in my notes app when I was, probably high school. Let me see if I can find it.
Bonnie (01:37:07.441)
Mm.
Kaili Meyer (01:37:24.878)
Something along the lines of tell the story. Gosh, I really wanna.
I've changed phones so many times. Essentially my why was I wanna tell stories for people who don't know how to tell their own. And at the time I thought that that was gonna look like documentaries or journalism. And in the beginning I thought copywriting was gonna be like a stepping stone for me. And then I realized like, no, actually what I'm doing is telling their business stories so that they can then spread that and impact more people. And I love that. So I say a.
Bonnie (01:37:44.913)
Mmm.
Kaili Meyer (01:38:05.006)
I used to say a voice for the voiceless, which is a bit dramatic for the business space, but it really is, and our tagline is, uncovering the words within. And so it's helping people articulate the things that are already inside of them, but they just don't know how to say. And how can we say it in a way that the right people hear it and go, yep, that's what I need, I'm in. And so it is so cool to do that for people.
Bonnie (01:38:25.841)
guess.
Mm, yes. And to loop this back to our four buyers conversation that you had that we were kind of saying before, is you've woven all of the smarts and the expertise within all of the things that you've created. So people can bring their personality to it and then layer it with your immense thoughtfulness of the creation and the structure and the timing of all of the things. So.
It's all in there. It's all in there. Right. Well, and I didn't even, you know, we figured out this schedule for this podcast to be recorded and it happens to be at this time, which I love. I love to be a part of this. I love that I get to be somebody who helps share what you're doing because I think there's so many people that are in my yoga side of world who will benefit so much from this. So...
Y'all's like show notes, we'll share a link. I'll probably, you know, I have an affiliate link, like go, you know, use my link.
I'll put it in the show notes. So go find the things, find Kayleigh on Instagram, go read her website, go read her website.
Bonnie (01:39:47.089)
I'm so sorry.
Kaili Meyer (01:39:47.278)
Sometimes I have to go back and read my own website because I'm writing so many websites and in my intake questionnaire I ask, like share some sites of copy that you love. And often people will say, well, I love your site and it's funny because every time I'm like, what does my website say? And I go back and read it because you're just so, like I'm writing every day and yeah, so it's funny that you say that because I'm like, about now I try to do it at least once a month, remind myself exactly what I said because it's easy to.
lose it when you're writing so many other people's websites.
Bonnie (01:40:19.153)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. Well, I guess one last thing, then we can sign off here. But having been on a call with you to just yesterday, where you were sharing about the kit, I've been thinking about the rest this month. So as we're recording this, it's the middle-ish of March. And I have a lot of behind the scenes sort of things for email, for.
social media for design stuff for website. And I'm like, you know what? I think there's some projects that are in the works for this month, but I think for my own self, this is, I'm like, this is March. March is going to be, get organized a little bit with business and like the word
highlights on Instagram, I don't even hardly use those at all. But I'm like, okay, how do I utilize the spaces and the things that I'm already doing and maximize a little bit more or refine a little bit more what I'm doing in those ways? There's a lot of growth that I can see for myself. So I say thank you for the opportunity to reflect on my own journey and where it is that I can...
can make those refinements because I mean, and also I'm still doing business and still like making money, but also I'm like, there's ways that I could do this that would make it perhaps an easier flow for people. And so I'm grateful for you.
Kaili Meyer (01:41:43.534)
Love that. Well, thank you so much for having me.
Bonnie (01:41:46.097)
You're so welcome. Any last words that you want to share?
Kaili Meyer (01:41:50.67)
We covered so much. I think just keep going and wherever that hits for you, I think is where it's meant to hit. But I think there's this idea that somebody out there has it more figured out than you or that it's easier for them. And I think this applies to so many areas of life. You just choose to keep going and eventually you kind of come up for error and find your place. But yeah.
Bonnie (01:42:18.001)
Go get it. Okay, y'alls, thanks for paying attention with us here today. Find Kaylee, go get the kit slash any other templates and maybe don't pay a new coach $84,000. Okay.
Kaili Meyer (01:42:31.918)
Bye.