224 - The Power of Breath and Bravery with Iona Holloway

Iona Holloway, a breathwork facilitator and creator of Brave Thing, joins us today. 
We talk how bravely taking action and embracing heartbreak and imperfection to catalyze personal and professional growth. We talk about how breathwork can be a powerful tool for self-discovery and transformation and a supportive add-on to a yoga practice. 

We  also dig into business building, including the importance of cultivating boundaries and sustainable practices,  finding voice, and showing up for the muse.

Connect with Iona through her website, by trying her free Meet Your Inner Child Breathwork session, or through her breathwork app, Soul.

*Sign up for Zero2Brave: 5 Brave Things. 5 Days. Who will you become!?

Weekly stories by email from Bonnie’s HERE

Connect with Bonnie: Instagram, Email (hello@bonnieweeks.com), Website
Listen to Bonnie's other podcast Sexy Sunday HERE

The music for this episode is Threads by The Light Meeting.
Produced by: Grey Tanner

Transcript

Bonnie (00:01.55)
Welcome back to the podcast.

Bonnie (00:06.594)
this already has good energy. Like this podcast is already gonna be one of my favorites. I can just feel it already. So we're just gonna start with that. That's a high expectation. It's like everybody tells you, like this movie is amazing. And then you go and you're like, no, was it? Was it not? I don't know. Maybe I shouldn't even start with that, but that's where I'm starting. Oh, my guest today is somebody that I have loved to both have conversation with.

follow them on the gram, see what they're up to. I love the way that she talks about supporting women and about redefining yourself and about taking deep looks into yourself and like fighting a sense of perfectionism and finding a sense of play and building a life that you really can claim as your own. And it does require you to restore yourself to...

see where maybe you have tried to hide and where you have forgotten maybe the importance of you in your own life. And such a powerful teacher and leader and somebody who speaks from their own personal experience. So welcome Iona to the podcast.

Iona (01:24.)
My goodness, I'm getting washed away with the enormity of that introduction. Thank you, Bonnie. I feel the same way. And I remember the first time I find you because I don't really find yoga content on Instagram. It's not something that I'm looking for necessarily. And I don't quite know how I stumbled on you, but I did. And then I went down, you know, the proverbial rabbit hole.

Bonnie (01:31.339)
E-

Iona (01:54.152)
And the thing that was blowing my mind was, I was like, why is this woman making me like yoga?

Like, why is this woman making me like, because I am not an easy sell on this topic at all. And even though it's interesting, I think sometimes people think I teach yoga because breathwork is a tool that I do teach. And I'm not trying to offend all the listeners and you by saying that, but that was how drawn in I was to you. Because suddenly I was fascinated and interested and curious in something that normally, you know,

Bonnie (02:03.534)
That's amazing!

Bonnie (02:10.769)
Mmm.

Bonnie (02:24.955)
Mmm.

Iona (02:32.552)
I'll scroll past that stuff and just assume that it's not for me. And I think that's because you teach yoga, but you teach how to be yourself. Like that's the underlying thread that I feel in yours, because you show up in your beanies and you're wearing jeans and you're mashing together dead lifts and yoga and I'm like, okay, I can, I could hang here for a little bit and probably learn something too, because I've like blown away by your actual content itself.

Bonnie (02:42.487)
Mmm.

Bonnie (02:59.223)
Mmm.

Iona (03:02.268)
And I'm always as a business owner. I know you've been in business a lot longer than I have. And still you have clearly. I don't want to say you're good at content. I can see you've got a lot of reps at creating amazing content for, for your audience. And so I've learned from watching you and talking to you as well. So it's a privilege to be here.

Bonnie (03:14.99)
Hmm.

Bonnie (03:24.738)
Oh my gosh, thank you. Also, I really like that you said, not that you're good at content, but that I have reps. I like that because I think maybe as, for both of us who are like, there's a way you do things and is it anything good enough or not, or I'm just practicing and kind of approaching everything as an experiment and a practice, I think I'm like, am I good at it or have I just gotten better at it than what I was?

And so there's always somewhere that I feel like I have to grow. And honestly, I just have fun with it. And then there's like a visual appeal that I do enjoy that I kind of have an aesthetic of like what I like to see. And so then I just like, that's what I share.

Iona (04:05.88)
Right, no, exactly, exactly. Yeah, well, something I have learned is you never get worse by practicing. But finding a way to stay is often the thing because I talk a lot about with bravery, brave thing, shocker, and it's just like it's a muscle. It's a muscle you get to work. You may have some parts of you that are more

Bonnie (04:13.803)
I mean, true.

Bonnie (04:18.966)
Mmmm

Bonnie (04:28.683)
Yeah.

Iona (04:33.588)
that you more naturally fall into. But bravery, like you talk about a lot, owning your voice. I talk about remembering who the fuck you are. It's just muscles. Identities are just muscles that you get to practice. Choose them and then spend some time breathing life into them. So not magic, but take some work. Take some work.

Bonnie (04:45.119)
Mmm.

Bonnie (04:50.592)
Yeah.

Bonnie (04:54.75)
No. It takes some work and it takes a lot of honesty and bravery in looking at yourself and figuring out who you are, what your voice is, or what you want your voice to be, or who you want to be. There's a bravery to step into it, but then there's also bravery to let yourself pivot when you want to change in it. And so it's not ever just one thing. You're like, now? I mean, even for myself, I'm like, I know I say, I want to help you own the hell out of your voice,

that is like kind of synonymous with remembering who the fuck you are. Like I think these very much like our messages are they, they are held at the same time together. Um, and even though I'm perhaps saying that I am still figuring out the different parts of me that need voice and the places where I'm like, Ooh, that feels hard to say. Like, why does that feel hard to say? Or, or this feels like an interesting topic or can I hold the response of somebody in this way?

So I am still unearthing those parts of myself too.

Iona (05:56.712)
Yeah, and I think it's the thing I like about you even saying that is that often these conversations aren't had. So when you step into the role of being, whether you view yourself as the founder of your business, or the creator of Flo Scroll, or I'm the creator of Muck and Gold, or whatever it is, you have to you step into that position of leader or authority or visionary, and you are the person that is creating.

the experience, but you haven't arrived, like pretty much, I think there's very few people on planet earth who have arrived at enlightenment or who have arrived at full acceptance of self or even knowing who the fuck you are. You're just always kind of sloughing off, sloughing, sloughing off a bit of muck and then I keep smacking my microphone and being able to be comfortable with.

Bonnie (06:52.812)
Mmm.

Iona (06:54.44)
the more and more of who you are. But it can be, I think that can be a scary thing when you almost feel like you expect yourself to be, even if you're not consciously thinking that, you think you have to be perfect and able to be able to help people, or you have to provide somewhere in order to be valuable or useful. And it's very easy for me to say that's not true. And also that's something I coach myself around all the time. Like we don't have to be this fully formed thing.

Bonnie (07:19.927)
Yeah.

Iona (07:24.348)
We can, you can be in process practicing alongside everyone else and being, being able to be honest about that. And actually things I found makes people trust you more.

Bonnie (07:25.484)
Yeah.

Bonnie (07:35.658)
Yeah, well, because it's scary and I think we can say it to people because we have felt it. We're like, okay, I'm going to step into the spot and it's going to be scary and it's a little bit uncomfortable and I don't know everything that I'm doing, but I'm just going to take a step. And I think about the very first thing that I, you said that I've been in business perhaps longer doing online things. And the very first thing online that was paid for me that I offered was in October of 2019. So

just a little bit before. And even with that, it was a six month mentorship. And I was like, I want four people, like I wanna hold four people for six weeks. And I put it out there. I think I shared it like once on an email list or like on Instagram just once. And I had four people and I was like, okay, great. Like that's what I want. That's like, that's how much I wanna hold. And then my friend who that I hired as a mentor later, like she, I like went to her and I was like, okay, I have people for six weeks. What do I do now?

Like honestly, I just started and I think sometimes having people in our corner, especially if you're stepping into spaces where you're going to help hold other people, to have other people that can help reflect back to you what you offer and how you can help set up things because it is a solo journey of creation if you're going to be stepping into these roles. And so I think to have my friend be like,

Okay, so six weeks, here's like some structure you could go into. I'm like, great. Because obviously people are saying, because I'm like doing shit or I like, they're like feeling something, but I want to like show up and actually give them value, not that I had zero ideas, but that I was kind of nervous. I was like, Oh, okay, they did. They signed up. Now what do I do? And then going from there. And then I did another one three months later and for 10 weeks and, um, you know, and eventually we have evolved to where we are. And.

August of 2020, I offered the first Flow School, and there's mentorship and Flow School, and be like, okay, what do people really need, or what do they really want from me, and where can I really meet them? And Flow School 100% couldn't have existed without that first group of four people that I'm like, what the hell do I even do here? I needed that experience before...

Bonnie (09:54.27)
I mean, I guess I had sold an online thing earlier that year, but that was the first time I like actually held live conversation with people was then, and I needed that experience in order for like a year later for flow school to even exist. Like you have to step and in, you're not going to know what you're doing and you still got to do it.

Iona (10:10.748)
Yeah, I know. I say this to the women I work with all the time is you have to trust yourself enough to do a brave thing. And you have to trust yourself enough to get into what I call irresistible motion. Which, you know, if you're, I think we're both, as we're talking today, in some version of tundra outside, like there's snow on the ground. So we've got like a snowball top of the hill. Once it starts rolling...

Bonnie (10:26.389)
Mmm.

Iona (10:39.1)
Once you kick it off the side, once it starts rolling, it grows and it builds and it gains some kind of momentum. And often that's what we need. Like we need to get into that motion and trust ourselves just enough to get into motion on offering something, selling. If you don't like that word, inviting people into an experience, experimenting with something because clarity comes through being in motion. Like once you have, you see just enough.

Bonnie (11:07.412)
Yeah.

Iona (11:09.256)
you have to get into emotion. I say this too in the context of identity, because a lot of the work that I do with my clients is inner work. So we are doing sort of internal reorganization of self so that we are seeing ourselves clearly and actually valuing who we are, accepting who we are. And you can do so much amazing internal reorganization, but at a certain point, if that identity doesn't pass through the blood barrier.

Bonnie (11:37.944)
Mm.

Iona (11:39.1)
and start, you start taking action as that woman in the world. You kind of fall into this distortion of shit. I knew, I know more of who I am. I like who I am. I think she's fucking cool, but my external world isn't reflecting that yet. And it was, it's almost worse than when you didn't like or appreciate or know how to see yourself clearly. So that's where like the verb is very much part of it too. Like you.

Bonnie (11:47.796)
Mmm.

Iona (12:07.104)
You've got to move. And I know it's fucking scary, but if you want to make anything, you got to make a move at some point. Let me get a move.

Bonnie (12:10.893)
Yeah.

Bonnie (12:15.634)
Yeah. That's really good.

It is that congruency between inner and outer world. And that is like a piece of bravery. You're like, it's brave to like look at yourself and say, okay, what do I need to be honest with about myself or the way that I think, or the way that I'm like approaching something or the way that I've thought of myself, et cetera. But then to create that change in real life requires more conversation. It requires a different boldness. And I think this is where...

Iona (12:44.744)
Mm-hmm.

Bonnie (12:48.318)
And I know we're talking about like make moves in your life and like do that. But I think this is also where you and I connect to or like, okay, we're going to deadlift and, and that makes me excited that you're like, I want to do yoga now. And I'm like, great. Like, because the yoga that I teach is different yoga and people walk away from my classes being like, I thought like, I've been practicing yoga for 10 years and this was like, I thought I knew what yoga was and now this is something different and I'm like, that's awesome. Like.

That's like a compliment to me that I'm like, I want to like create, like we can still do these postures that are labeled yoga and it's still flow and it's still like we're using the mat and we still have this mindfulness and we still have all this, but there's something, there's a level, like there's something different that we're adding here that people are like, wait a second. But I think it's because movement and movement in your body. And this is why I like always come back to something. There's a movement in your body.

And then in yoga in particular, like you can't stand with your legs spread and your arms spread up over your head in a big star shape. Like you can't do that and not have it affect you in some way. And like the homework that I often give when I am working in a coaching level with folks and with teachers is, you know, I think it is this experience of figuring out how to give yourself permission to take up space.

Iona (13:54.857)
Right.

Bonnie (14:10.706)
and motion is going to help you do that. And using your body as a tool and then trying to pay attention to how you feel and like leaning into like the discomfort or comfort of that. But I will tell people, I'm like, I want you to go find a street that doesn't have cars on it. And I want you to go stand in the middle of the street where you're gonna be safe, not gonna run over. And I want you to take your arms out to the side and do this all by yourself.

You're not there with anybody else. You're not trying to make it like fun times. Like you can, but like do it all for your fucking self. Just go stand in the middle of the street and I want you to walk down the street, palms up, arms up and walk down the middle of the street just for the hell of it. Go make yourself big and be the weird one. Be like the person out there doing that thing. And that might sound really ridiculous, but there's something in that cause it's not what we normally do.

And I think that's where I like to pull in like yoga and movement, thinking of deadlift. Like you're not, we're not usually over there like, I'm gonna lift up this really heavy shit right now. And then you do it, right? And like these things like strength training and like the other movement practices, like these can't not affect us. And like bringing the yoga mat into like real world, go walk down the street or the sidewalk and do this. Like it's like, okay, let's bridge the gap between this and let your tangible, touchable body.

Iona (15:22.932)
Mm-hmm.

Bonnie (15:35.51)
be a tool to help you lead you inside.

Iona (15:38.568)
Yeah, totally. It's been such a, it's been a really movement, my relationship with it. It's been such an interesting thing for me in the last five years. So my whole life, I was a competitive athlete. I played field hockey. That was how I ended up getting a scholarship to move to the US from Scotland, which is where I'm from originally. And, but like all along the way, it was hand in hand with restrictive eating.

I stay away from labels, but you know, it was, it was a very serious, intense, and brutal relationship with food and my body, which was the lyric and the undercurrent of my, of my entire life. And once I, once I graduated from university, there was this massive identity dissolving because I was no longer an athlete. I was no longer.

Bonnie (16:10.862)
Mm-hmm.

Bonnie (16:15.778)
Mmm.

Bonnie (16:31.752)
Mmm.

Iona (16:36.7)
and All American, I was no longer something important. And of course I filled the hole with CrossFit and then I took the same beliefs and stories and everything to that place and just got more maniacal and more dialed in. And then I hit my rock bottom when I was 29. So I was exercising sometimes for four hours a day. I was massively restricting. I was doing weightlifting competitions

dieting down the weight class and so under the guise of performance and then I, my brother called me and told me that I was going to be an aunt to my niece who's Evie, she's five now and it was one of those moments of just kind of brutal clarity like who do you want this child to know and it certainly wasn't who I was at that time and it wasn't that I was, I mean

Bonnie (17:23.715)
Hmm.

Iona (17:36.652)
I haven't struggled to view myself as able to do brave things or successful or confident or believing in myself. I've kind of always had some degree of that, but just this horrific feeling about myself. And so in the last, I had to throw out the crossfit. I had to throw out the structured exercise. I had to throw it all away or at least put it down.

Bonnie (17:51.426)
Hmm.

Iona (18:05.948)
a while so I could actually, to your point, connect with my body as a thing of that was precious and not something to be monitored and controlled and shrunk. And that is what has been the story of my life for the last five years. And it's been a beautiful thing because I really never thought I was going to be able to have some degree of peace with the way my body looked, whatever that was. And I never would.

Bonnie (18:25.989)
Mmm.

Bonnie (18:33.432)
Mm.

Iona (18:35.968)
thought I would reach some degree of peace of, I enjoyed movement today and it didn't look like anything in particular, but I was in my body. Like that distinction was mind blowing to me. Being in it, as opposed to being like the crushing weight of expectation on top of it, such a different thing. And so breath work has been a part of that journey, not my favorite word, but like that has been a huge part of.

Bonnie (18:47.883)
Yeah.

Bonnie (18:55.094)
Hmm.

Iona (19:05.5)
my life over the last few years is speaking my body's language and breath work and being able to do that. And then I'm ultimately teaching it to other women who probably wouldn't show up to a yoga class, or who probably wouldn't enjoy meditation, but they enjoy the visceral feeling of breathing and maybe the fact that I say fuck during a visualization and it's

It works for me and it works, it works for them. But yeah, I always thought I was in my body. I had no idea until I started exploring ways of movement in the way that you talk about it or in the way that I do. It's a different thing.

Bonnie (19:34.712)
Yeah.

Bonnie (19:47.314)
Mmm.

Bonnie (19:50.815)
Yeah.

Bonnie (19:56.162)
That's really beautiful in the way that.

I know I think when we have the hindsight of something, you can look back five years and be like, okay, like this small child, the beauty of this small child that has no idea that the gift that their presence that was going to be in the world created this whole shift. And how I think that happens for so many of us. I mean, I can think of people who probably don't even know how much I think of them or how they like propel me.

Iona (20:17.703)
Yeah.

Iona (20:31.57)
Mm.

Bonnie (20:31.993)
or push me or invite me to keep on my own journey.

Iona (20:36.404)
Yes, yes.

Bonnie (20:38.086)
And like that's just really beautiful.

Iona (20:40.36)
Mm-hmm. Oh, I see. All the time with my business. My business initiates me every single day because of the woman that I work with. And not that I'm projecting some kind of false sense of, I'm this brave thing. You should live like me. It's not that all I would ever want is for someone to define what their brave life, they think it might look and feel like, and then move with bravery in that direction. But

If I'm creating coaching experiences and mentorship groups and my app to invite people to know themselves and then to take and then to be that person in the world, I'd better be fucking doing it. And so yeah, like my business just holds me accountable in that way. And I.

Bonnie (21:24.599)
Mm-hmm.

Bonnie (21:29.26)
Yeah.

Iona (21:34.208)
People often say like, oh, it sounds like you've really been thinking about that a lot. I was like, I can't not. Because as soon as some weird little fucking shrinky thought comes into my head, and I know in some way because I know the power of a thought, if I let it be true, it can bleed and paint all over everything. Of course, I had to spend some time thinking about that and coaching myself around it because I want to be able to be here, present for you, not perfect, but active in my life.

Bonnie (22:03.766)
Mm-hmm.

Iona (22:03.88)
like active in my own, in my own brave things. Cause otherwise, why the, like why the fuck should you listen to anything I say?

Bonnie (22:08.256)
Yeah.

Bonnie (22:13.566)
Yeah. Well, perfect is boring anyway. So perfect is boring. Um, but I totally hear you on your business initiating you. Cause I, I mean it wasn't until this past July and I was making a video for Instagram and I said, I said the line about like owning the hell out of your voice. And then I was like, Oh, that's interesting. Like that is what it is, but I hadn't put it in those words. And it was just, when I record a video, I don't

Iona (22:15.784)
Yeah.

Bonnie (22:40.218)
I will have an idea. I'm like, okay, I want to like talk about this thing. And then I, I figure out how to say it as I'm saying it. And then it's going to, sometimes it takes me one take and I'm like, wow, that was amazing. I can't believe I just did that in one take.

Iona (22:54.184)
So fucking good, oh my god.

Bonnie (22:56.646)
And then other times I'm like, this is a 15 minute long video of me starting and stopping and like standing there being like, blah, what's happening? And then figuring out where the cut is and then like ending it down, right? But I think after I said that, I was like, oh, that is the thing. But the way that phrase in its simplicity in this past six months has called me into my own self.

Iona (23:04.672)
Mm-hmm.

Iona (23:23.974)
Yeah.

Bonnie (23:24.738)
just even this past six months where I'm like, okay, I started saying this. And if that's my invitation for people, and if people are feeling that invitation, regardless if they are a yoga teacher or anybody who even practices yoga, that's interesting. And my desire, you know, like not that it exists right now, but I have some ideas brewing for like people who are not yoga teachers to be like, okay, there's other people here to work with besides yoga teachers in this space.

Iona (23:48.3)
Absolutely.

Bonnie (23:49.706)
But the way that it calls me into being like, okay, if you're asking people to own the Hall of Voice, like where is it that's like the space for you to grow in and doing the exact same work? And I am like, that's the piece where I'm like, if I was not doing that, if I felt like, oh, I've got it, like check, like I should not be teaching it then.

Iona (23:58.802)
Mm-hmm.

Iona (24:10.6)
Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Isn't that that's such a cool example of if you told me that it was only six months ago, that on the hell of your voice was kind of your thing. I'll be like, Oh, but you've been, I feel like you've been saying that forever. But that's what happens when you do a lot of work. That's what happens when you practice that is when you that's what happens when you keep showing up and find a way to stay in.

Bonnie (24:12.822)
Yeah.

Bonnie (24:31.982)
Mm-hmm.

Iona (24:38.6)
your business if you have one or your life, which we all have, and being able to stay there long enough for that kind of clarity to distill for the diamond to just, it doesn't just pop out of the rough. It's like it's, it's pushed through intentional pressure. And then there it is. And that's, you know, that that's the way that names for all of my programs have come through, like Brave Thing came to me when I was just doing free writing one day.

Bonnie (24:49.066)
Yeah.

Bonnie (24:56.684)
Hahaha, yeah!

Iona (25:08.468)
But free writing is something that I've done consistently for a long time. And then one day, there was my business name. Same for Luminous, my mentorship group, same for Muck and Gold. These names appear out of apparently nowhere, but I know it's not magic. It's because of who I've been for long enough for magic to find.

Bonnie (25:15.307)
Mm-hmm.

Bonnie (25:28.788)
Mm-hmm.

Bonnie (25:32.766)
Yeah, yeah. When I love that, you know, we were talking about how there's maybe some, I mean, I think in the conversation of magic and work, right? Like there's a little bit of both. There's things that are unexplainable that you're like, oh, there was this idea and that there is this level of like actual physical work. There's actual like movement and, you know, it's like this, the Pablo Picasso.

quote that I shared recently where I was like, inspiration exists, but it has to find you working. And so it's both things. Like we can hold both things. We're like, oh, it feels like magic. And even in our conversation, I'm like, oh, I can feel you. Like the connection between us is a real connection, but it's not palpable. And also the work it takes to like meet each other here and to do our own work and to like have technology and whatever. Like there's like both things that can exist.

Iona (26:03.29)
Mm-hmm.

Iona (26:22.204)
Yeah. Yeah, I sat down on I had a long day on I had a long day on Monday. So I try to do this thing every year as a business owner and also as a as a person. I tried to read two books specifically related to money. One's Profit First and then the second one is I will teach you to be rich. And I've tried to read these every year for the last this is my second year reading them. So we're on a we're on a roll.

Bonnie (26:41.642)
Mm.

Yeah.

Iona (26:51.98)
And I just try to implement or refine whatever my approach is. And so I did profit first last week, cleaned up some stuff in my business. And then this week it was more personal with the, I will teach you to be rich stuff and I was focusing on, okay, I want to save a hundred thousand dollars for a house this year. So I've heard I need to, and what's the credit card that he's recommending to start to diversify my credit, blah, blah. And.

One, I was like, oh my God, it is exhausting work to do this like very intentional, intentional self-development, but it doesn't happen by accident. So anyway, I was happy that I was actually moving through it and not getting blocked. And then it was 4.30 and I write an email every Monday. Like it's what I do. It's what I've done every single day, not every single day, every single Monday since 2020. Yeah.

when I started my email list. And I've sent an email, I think every single Monday, apart from maybe twice in, what is that now, three years. I was 4.30 and normally I'm piecing the fuck out. If I can, like three to 4 p.m. I'm always trying to piece out of my, of working and into more like life, chill, whatever. But I hadn't written an email. And so I was like, well.

We're going to sit down and something's going to come out. And to your point, it's like, it has to see you working. And I ended up writing this email that I was like, I actually think that was really good. And then in very quick succession after I wrote it, three people were like, oh my God, this is the best, like this is beautiful. And I just replied to every single one of them saying, this didn't even exist like 45 minutes ago. I didn't even want to write this email, but.

The muse doesn't give a fuck. It needs to see you sitting there. It needs to see you working. Like why the fuck should she chill up if you don't? I think it can be, that's where you get to meet magic. Who you're being.

Bonnie (28:52.184)
Yeah.

Bonnie (28:58.286)
Hmm

Bonnie (29:02.506)
Mm. Yeah. And it's like the same for, I think, teaching yoga and finding sequences.

Bonnie (29:20.078)
Excuse me. I'd say that finding magic in moments like that, like where you sit down and do the things, like the muse. And I think that's some of the, it's the same work. Like we're doing the same thing and the way that we say it. And I think it's so fun to meet you here in this space because...

Iona (29:20.481)
Own the calf. Own it.

Bonnie (29:43.606)
This is also where abundance lies. This is where it's like, I do it in a certain way, you do it a certain way. There's different people that land with different people and to say like, just keep showing up. And if you feel burnt out, if you feel like you are lacking creativity, if you feel like you have lost this connection with self, you just, you have to lean back into playing. You have to lean back into like sitting down and actually being with it and not trying to prove anything. And just like,

Iona (29:50.444)
Mm-hmm.

Iona (30:11.903)
Yeah.

Bonnie (30:13.258)
Like what if you just did it just for you and then use whatever you find that you did just for you to then bring to the world?

Iona (30:22.284)
Oh, yeah. As soon as you're trying to be smart, you're fucked. I think I mean, I know in the, again, just being honest, there's periods of time owning my business where I'm like, Oh, my God, I could do this forever. I just love this work. I don't even need to be paid. Like, I love this work so much. And then I call that the sort of you fall in love with the idea of doing of being able to do your own thing. And then there's this

Bonnie (30:28.105)
Mm-hmm.

Iona (30:51.36)
point I see it with so many of the women I work with who do own businesses where at a certain point your business has to start working. Like it really has to start supporting you. Otherwise you are going to get burned out because passion doesn't fucking feed you. Passion doesn't pay bills, money does. And I do believe that we can create businesses where you really love what you do and you work hard.

Bonnie (31:05.506)
Mm-hmm.

Iona (31:19.828)
But you kind of need, you need both for it to exist. And I do know for sure that if you are just working hard, you are burning it. Like there's no just, just working hard or trying to force it or doing shit that you think you need to do in order to attract enough people that you've disconnected from what it is that you are, you are specifically able to teach and I've like, when I look obviously hindsight's 2020, but

Bonnie (31:27.121)
Mmm.

Bonnie (31:38.542)
Mm-mm.

Iona (31:48.476)
I can look back on months in my business where I was so in me and so feeling it that like everything I said just felt like it was landing. And then there's these periods of time where you lose a bit of connection with yourself or you lose a bit of confidence, which is normal, or something else happens in your life because we have lives and you just lose a bit of connection and then it can sometimes get a wee bit weird or then or you're trying to force it.

Bonnie (31:53.442)
Hmm.

Iona (32:17.516)
because you want it now, and there's kind of some impatience there, and you can burn out real fast. And that's why that relationship with yourself and really viewing what you do as valuable and enough, that's what keeps you warm on the cold nights. But it's not some part, you don't just find it and then it never leaves you again. It's one of those.

Bonnie (32:36.109)
Yeah.

Iona (32:41.716)
I don't know, well, for me, I'm speaking for myself because that's the only person I can speak for, but it takes conscious work to stay connected to yourself and be able to show up when you need it, that way.

Bonnie (32:48.19)
Yeah. Well, and I think this, like even you're saying, like you don't force it. And at the same time, you sat down on Monday at 430 and you're like, no, you're going to write this. And I think that can be translated though as force. Yeah.

Iona (33:06.636)
Mm, yes. Yeah. Sometimes I do. Sometimes I do. And...

Bonnie (33:10.738)
Mm-hmm. Do you feel like when you are in those spaces, because I have thought of this quite a bit with like showing up and like, oh, I've decided to do this, or I've said I was going to do this, or maybe I haven't even told anybody, but like this is kind of how I operate and where I force myself to show up. So I would love to know what type of creativity have you found in yourself because of those times? Maybe you didn't want to.

because I think there's a tricky thing where it's like, there's a force that feels like you're going against like closed fists. And there's a force that feels like you're trying to, like you're in an open field, like finding the path. Like those are different types of forcing.

Iona (33:52.404)
Yeah. Yes. When I am, like when I'm hitting my head against the wall, or I can really feel that my battery is like it died, like it died over like an hour ago or it died three days ago, or I'm starting to feel my body starting to get symptomatic. And by that I mean like

very stressed or I can feel like I might get sick if I keep doing it. It's when I'm sort of hitting up against that brick wall. But see things like I just don't really feel like it or I'm bored with this or oh I don't really want to. It's a bit more of a softer resistance. It's often a bit muckier and that's why I know it's more emotional. It's not so much like this deadened feeling of exhaustion. It's more I'm feeling a bit whiny.

Bonnie (34:33.621)
Mmm.

Bonnie (34:39.313)
Mmm.

Iona (34:46.764)
or I'm feeling kind of bored. I was actually talking to my client about that yesterday because she's this close to completing her first round of editing her book. And she was saying that she's kind of bored with it. And I was saying to her, this is when the fucking sausage gets made. It's when you find a way to work through boredom. It is a privilege to be bored with the edited draft of what is going to be your best-selling book.

Bonnie (34:49.27)
Mmm.

Iona (35:16.04)
You got this, like you got this far. There's still a long way to go, but you get to work with this boredom. This boredom is not exhaustion. This boredom is not burnout. This boredom is not, I hate my book. It's boredom. And you get to be an adult and use all the tools and getting back into your body or take a walk and come back and take care of business. Cause all we're doing is editing this for 30 minutes a day. And so it's, it's different. One is squishier and muckier. And one is more that like brick wall or.

Bonnie (35:23.479)
Mm.

Iona (35:45.737)
or dead feeling.

Bonnie (35:47.231)
Mm, I love that clarification so much. And I think this leads really well into some of the work you do because there's a nuance in this to say like, okay, which one is it? How do I tell? Like, how do I pay attention? In what ways does my body talk to know if I'm hitting the wall versus I'm feeling bored when they both are telling me that I don't wanna do this?

Iona (36:15.548)
Yeah, yeah.

Iona (36:20.084)
When I love talking about victimhood with my clients, and I love the word victim, mostly because I think a lot of people are very triggered by it. I don't think it's necessary. When I talk about feeling like a victim in your life, all I mean is you are feeling, you're in your small self. So some other thing is controlling you or some other, you're allowing something to make you feel.

Bonnie (36:41.326)
Mm.

Iona (36:47.696)
small or incapable or not good enough or whatever it is and see when you can feel and with breathwork for example there's lots of different visualizations or breathwork experiences that I do with my clients that allows them to feel that smallness in their body or connect with that part of them that's feeling small in their body and then mother the fuck out of it like find a way to

Bonnie (37:14.869)
Mm.

Iona (37:16.64)
hold yourself through that. And I say mother, and I know that some people's mothers are not great role models, but I believe we can all be, we can be whatever that needs to be. Be biggest supporter, best friend, whatever it is. How can I find a way to move myself into this place of I can and I will? Even from like a nervous system perspective, we can sometimes get stuck in parts of our nervous system where we're collapsed.

or we can get stuck in parts of our nervous system where we're just vibrating and feeling very ungrounded. And we want to leave these places of I can't or I must and just come back to this place of I can and I will, and I'm grounded in myself. And again, I don't think it's a magical thing, but I do think it requires you to learn how to speak your body's language. And that is what yoga teaches us, that is what breathwork.

Bonnie (37:50.996)
Yeah.

Bonnie (38:09.282)
Mm-hmm.

Iona (38:14.252)
teaches us is how to speak your body's language and understand that. I don't know. Have you seen them? Have you seen the movie Arrival where the aliens talk in circles?

Bonnie (38:18.037)
Mmm.

Bonnie (38:25.526)
Oh, I don't think I have.

Iona (38:27.24)
So it's a really beautiful movie, but these aliens arrive from some distant planets and they obviously don't speak our linear language. They speak in these sort of expressive paint circles that they just splash onto the walls. And I think your body is like that. It doesn't speak in, I am sad, I am stressed, I am anxious. These are all logos that we place on top of these more.

Bonnie (38:37.368)
Yeah.

Iona (38:56.252)
mucky, emotional, nonlinear experiences that our body has. And I don't know about you, but I never fucking learned how to speak my body's language until I was 29 and in a rock bottom. But I have now spent some time here where I can kind of feel quite quickly what my body is saying to me. And then I can understand what it needs.

Bonnie (38:58.591)
Yeah.

Bonnie (39:19.054)
Mm-hmm.

Iona (39:23.632)
And I also want to clarify that I don't always, I don't always try to make a move. Sometimes the brave thing is, oh, lie the fuck down. And me learning how to do that has been just as, if not more valuable than work through the boredom. Like they're both great muscles to learn how to work.

Bonnie (39:35.23)
Mm-hmm.

Bonnie (39:44.216)
Yeah.

Bonnie (39:48.178)
Yeah, that makes me think about giving myself permission. And when you're in that moment, you're like, I'm gonna give myself permission to do the fucking work, to stand up, to go face this, or I'm gonna give myself permission to lay down. And like, it's that moment, you're like, okay, I'm noticing, I'm paying attention, my body is talking. Like, where do I need to go? And what action do I need to take? And maybe it's like, I give myself permission to sit here and to be in this. Like, it can be all of those things.

Iona (40:12.081)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah, no time spent in your body is wasted. I don't really think you can get it wrong. Because even if more information is revealed, you're like, Oh, now I do really need to go lie down this time. It's just, it kind of keeps rolling. Cause the experiences have to complete in some, in some kind of a form they want to, emotions want to complete.

Bonnie (40:20.151)
Yeah.

Bonnie (40:26.034)
Yeah.

Bonnie (40:36.51)
Yeah. So, you know, it makes sense that people come to you and are like, okay, so you're doing yoga, you're leading yoga. Because within yoga world, breath work, pranayama, meaning breath, breath is like a part of it. And I think that's like, I think that's the interesting part about yoga is that it's one word. And here on this podcast, I define yoga as the practice of paying attention, which means it has tendrils that shoot out in all.

always, which really is what it's about. It's about kind of like a perspective that you might take on the world. It's an awareness that you have of yourself and your relationship with others and with the world. It's like all of the things. And while it has been or comes from some deep religious sort of practicing roots, that is not how I use it. I don't think it needs to be

held tightly. I think it can be morphed and meet people in a lot of different ways. And coming from my own high demand religion story, like that's not definitely not where I come into yoga. But it is a piece like having this awareness of breath and this connection of breath and how you can use your breath to pay attention to perhaps the things that you will like if you're like, Oh, I am breathing really quickly right now. And I thought, and I'm saying

this is fine, I'm fine. And then all of a sudden you're like, but I feel like everything is constricting and I can't breathe. Then it's like, wait a second. Like if we pay attention to our body, so using the breath is this tool of awareness of self that the body is talking, right? The body talks, like here we are. And so it's using that as its own tool and then using your breath then to like manipulate.

Like, because it affects your nervous system, it affects how you can feel and think about yourself. So you're like, okay, this is how my body is responding. How do I use this as a tool to tap back into other versions of myself? So I think about the breath in these ways. And so breath work lands within like the yoga umbrella. And you do not have to label yourself as like a yogi to be.

Bonnie (42:52.926)
I mean, like anybody, I remember when I was a runner and I was like, when do I get to call myself a runner? Like how much do you have to run? How often, how long? And I'm, and I tell people like, you're gonna call yourself a runner anytime you want. Like, do you like to sing in the shower? You're, you're, you're a singer. Like, you know, whatever. So like, if you want to be like, I do breath work, I'm a yogi, that is a, that's something you could do. And also you can just hold breath work and like that's okay too.

Iona (42:58.856)
Yeah.

Bonnie (43:22.13)
And you don't have to like do quote unquote, what people, what the visual of yoga on a mat looks like. Um, anyways, just cause I know a lot of yoga folks might be listening to this. Like it's there, there can be some nuance in this, but I would love to hear from you about.

Iona (43:30.837)
Right.

Bonnie (43:42.25)
When I think of meditation, meditation can feel hard to grasp for a lot of folks. And really when I think of meditation in its very simplest form is just paying attention to your breath and just breathing. And is that how, is that, I mean, cause you kind of mentioned a meditation earlier and then talking about breath work, is that any sort of lines that you draw as well?

Iona (43:49.46)
Mm-hmm.

Iona (43:58.132)
Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Iona (44:09.34)
I love what you said about the paying attention. And I would say that the breath work that I facilitate for clients can go all the way from paying attention in a moment to be able to notice that your breath is gone or you are not here or you've disappeared somewhere and coming back all the way to facilitating alter seat of consciousness, more like psychedelic experiences where

you paired with like an inner child visualization where you go transport yourself through time and space and have this moment of like what the fuck I'm seeing myself in a totally different way. Like I teach both those sides of

Bonnie (44:50.882)
Hmm. Is that what you mean by, because I know that you share, you're like psychedelic breathwork. Like can you break that down? If somebody, I think the word psychedelic is so often also brought in with like drugs and drug use and how do I do this? And so the word psychedelic with breathwork and what that means together, we share more.

Iona (45:03.624)
Right, yes.

Iona (45:08.956)
Yeah, sure. So the first thing I'll say is psychedelic is one of those words that I've been experimenting with too, in the last six months, and I found that it really attracts a certain type of person. And it's a polarizing word. So some people they're like attracted by this, the intensity of it. Some people are curious about what that means. Some people think it's drugs, some people are terrified by it. And that's it's not

I wouldn't say I've landed right on, I love this word to describe my work. But what I mean by like a deep breath work experience like that is we'll do a rhythmic breath. It's often a three-part breath. So double inhale, single exhale, all the breathing through your mouth. You're lying down. I'll always cue people in with a grounding, some kind of visualization. I'm very well known for like inner child themed visualizations, but.

go across the board, future self, connecting with someone in your past, like all that kind of stuff. And then sometimes it's not that deeper, complicated or specific and you land with whatever it is that you want. And then we'll breathe with music for, you know, normally like between 15 and 30 minutes. And over that time, people can feel like massive emotional breakthroughs.

very clarity around things, a lot of creativity, sometimes deep understanding or compassion for yourself, laughing, crying, excited, kind of delirious, feeling like you're floating off into the ether, feeling like you're so deep in the floor that you could never move again, just like that very intense embodied experience.

I love facilitating this. Like those are really fun to facilitate. And also, and I think this is my roundabout way of tapping into something you were talking about. I still think it's just the practice of paying attention and coming into awareness. And then what? Like to me, breath work is not what Brave Thing is. Breath work is the primary tool that I have found that really helps women.

Bonnie (47:23.938)
Yeah.

Iona (47:35.872)
connect with themselves, the kind of women that are attracted to me, perhaps ice queens or I'm allergic to simple, like to traditional meditation. It doesn't quite hit them with the intensity that it needs. Those who might be for me, I didn't want to go traditional therapy routes. I kind of wanted to have a different, more body based experience. So it catches those women. And then

Bonnie (47:46.978)
Mmm.

Bonnie (48:02.786)
Did you say, did you call the ice queens? Ice queens.

Iona (48:05.672)
Yes. Yeah. Yeah, like frozen lakes of emotion. Like women that don't feel their emotions. Like that was very much like robot ice queen. That was very, very much my vibe for most of my life. Breathwork taught me how to feel. And I find it really, it really helps women who are similar in that way learn how to feel. And on the whole other end.

Bonnie (48:11.17)
Mmm.

Bonnie (48:16.405)
Okay.

Bonnie (48:25.332)
Mmm.

Iona (48:32.748)
For the clients I have who have a lot of emotions and feel like they feel a lot of emotions all the time, BreathWork's been a really powerful way for them to clear that, filter through it, understand what is theirs, what is not, all that good stuff. But yeah, I just view BreathWork as, I don't say it flippantly, it's a very powerful tool in and of itself. And I didn't come to it through...

I didn't come through it through yoga. I actually have a really clear memory of the first time that I used intentional breath to create like a magic for me was when I was in college and I had to pass a fitness test and I was given a really fast time to run this 2K, sub seven minutes, which is really fast. And I...

Bonnie (49:23.854)
Hmm.

Iona (49:28.828)
worked with myself over the summer to get to a place where I was metabolically fit enough to do that. But then even when I was training, I found that the only way that I could reach that peak intensity and hold it was if my breath was calm. Because as soon as I lost my breath, I lost everything. I lost control of my body, I lost control of my mind, I lost control of everything. And so I didn't know I was practicing breath work at the time.

Bonnie (49:43.479)
Hmm

Iona (49:55.616)
But I look back on it now and I'm like, oh my God, how wise is that? To come into awareness of that is, the breath is the thing that allows me to execute. And it's also the thing that allows me to feel. So, yeah.

Bonnie (49:59.001)
Hmm.

Bonnie (50:10.238)
Yeah. Oh, that's so potent.

Bonnie (50:18.87)
It's one of my favorites to think about runners in my yoga classes, actually. There's a certain intensity if you're going to be a runner and if you're going to be a fast runner, if you're like, I'm running every day and there's like, there's a lot of runners I know who like Ashtanga or like some like very like rigid practices. There's just something about that. I think the movement, it feels similar in Ashtanga because you move forward and back. Like it's the same movement where

Iona (50:26.248)
Mm.

Iona (50:35.424)
Mm-hmm.

Iona (50:43.808)
Forward and back, yeah.

Bonnie (50:47.234)
I am circular movement. Like we are moving full circles, we're facing in all directions. And I really love to teach to breath pace. And running is breath work, even though it's like not thought of in that way. And I thought about that because I came from, I was a runner for a chunk of time. I found weight training, my running got stronger and faster, of course.

And then I found yoga and then I was doing all three and it was like, so it's, that was my life. I like had, my youngest was very little, you know, between I started running after my second was born, like really started dedicating myself to running and my middle kid is like 16 now. And so then after having my third kiddo, then I was running a lot more and then doing the other things. And it got to the point where it's like, I kind of want to sit down running. I kind of wanted to not do it. I loved it. There's like a feeling to it.

There's nothing like taking yourself out somewhere far and being like, I did this with my own body. Like, this is amazing. And I'm like to be in that range where I'm like, I could do it, go run seven miles and it feels like I come back. There's no pain. It feels good. And I definitely had to work through different pain points for it. But I got to this point where I was like, I wanted to just lift. I just want to lift and do yoga. And I actually got injured. I got plantar fascia in my feet. So then I couldn't run.

Iona (51:50.548)
Yeah.

Bonnie (52:12.186)
And I didn't feel sad about it. I was like, you know what? I've been kind of wanting to, but didn't know how to set it down and giving myself permission to set something down because we're not, it's like saying no to something isn't celebrated super, like a lot, right? That's its whole own topic. But when I really let myself just lean into yoga is when I was like, oh, this makes sense why, like I wasn't carrying myself far away from my house on my feet.

But in the practice of yoga, when you move with your breath, it's not necessarily fast. And some people might think it's fast, it depends on the type of yoga you're perhaps doing or the movements you're doing. But it is a continuous motion. And if you're moving with your breath, running is a movement with your breath. And so I think for those people who might really gravitate towards those practices that are really endurance-based,

Iona (52:39.966)
Mm-hmm.

Bonnie (53:07.894)
to find the place in yoga or a class in yoga where you're moving with your breath, but then also the class invites you to also sit your ass down. It's like, oh, I love finding those places because that's what I realized for me. I was like, oh, I need to sit my ass down. Like that's what I need because I've been like, I could just keep going. Like, great, we're on hour number six. I'll do the next thing, perfect. So finding a space that allowed me to move with my breath and then also sit down and like.

Iona (53:16.233)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Bonnie (53:37.506)
be with my breath without movement. That was like such a magic piece. So.

Iona (53:43.532)
Mm hmm. Yeah, I am. I got into a whole new appreciation of free of breath work this, not this January, but past January a year ago, and where I started you did Sue, and learning how to stay calm when a 200 pound guy is trying to take away your breath source and realizing I can find a way to stay here, or I can, I can be like water here.

Bonnie (54:06.623)
Mmm.

Iona (54:13.236)
Like, can I find a way to stay calm in this experience of intensity, which was, which has been really cool. And then also I dislocated my knee. Well, I hurt it first in a jujitsu competition and then I dislocated it in December throwing a ball for my dog who doesn't even retrieve most of the time. And the reason that I...

The reason why I brought that up is because I was talking to my personal, not personal trainer, my physical therapist, who's a gym dude. So he understands that I want to heal through movement. And he was doing an assessment of my body and of my legs and of my balance and all that kind of thing. And he said, you know what? I have...

And the thing that was kind of weird about my knee injuries, I've hurt them both now over the last eight years doing the exact same thing, which is walking backwards, which is a very odd way to kind of tear my ACL or really hurt my, hurt my knee. And so he was kind of confused about why that would be, but then he started looking at my legs and looking at how they were structured and all this kind of stuff, he said, okay, I have a working theory and it is that.

Bonnie (55:21.335)
Hmm

Iona (55:39.968)
your quads, which I've always had really big quads, like from when I was a kid sitting next to girls on the bus going to hockey, it's like my legs would take up. I was small like them, but my quads would take up double the seat compared to, compared to, I've always had that. And then like years of hockey and crouching and strength training and CrossFit and Olympic lifting and all that kind of stuff has probably helped them reach their full potential. But he was saying to me, I think that your...

quad muscles are so overdeveloped and so over strong that your hamstrings just can't hang. And so your quad is kind of shearing over your knee and that's what's causing this kind of weird injury when you're walking backwards. And so I went away and I was like, that's kind of interesting. And it made me think about how in all of us, we have these strengths that are often overdeveloped. Like you said, like I...

Bonnie (56:23.832)
Hmm.

Iona (56:40.08)
enjoy the running. I love that feeling of going seven miles. I love that intensity. But what we are really learn, like where I could really, really grow is in the opposite direction. It's in the set the fuck down or it's in the, in the quietness or in the silence or in the peace or in the less as opposed to the more. And so I've really been thinking about my quad muscles a lot as I move into this year of what is already strong, that doesn't need to be proven anymore.

Bonnie (56:50.797)
Mm-hmm.

Bonnie (56:58.378)
Mm-hmm.

Bonnie (57:08.319)
Mmm.

Iona (57:08.78)
And where can I continue to learn more about myself in the opposite, in the opposite direction?

Bonnie (57:15.935)
Yeah.

Hmm, what is already strong that doesn't need to be proven? That's beautiful.

Yeah, I think all the time when I say it to my teachers that I work with, I'm like, you have nothing to prove here. And I think it's something that I say because like I have my own relationship with it, right? Like we say the things, like we say the things we need to hear and be like, okay, what if I don't have anything to prove? What if I just show up and I'm just like the self that I am and don't have to prove anything? And then of course, those are the things we say. So that's lovely.

Iona (57:39.001)
Right. I know.

Thank you.

Iona (57:54.504)
Yeah. Even like within totally not connected to yoga. But I've been thinking about that a lot with my business recently because I don't know about you, but I'm someone who is very good at throwing spaghetti at the wall. And I'm very good at taking quick action and just like trying it and seeing how it goes. And the blind spot of that, or not the blind spot, but the kind of shadow.

story is I have a, I always have, I've always had a very hard time with any kind of structure, like setting structure for myself to feel supported that I can flow through. Like my school bag, when I was going to school, I would start off the year with all of these binders and folders with the dividers so that everything could be organized or with the planner. And then by the end of it, like I would never use any of it. I would never use the planner. My, my

homework was all over the place and it was stressful. And that's something that in my business, my whole business lives in my head. I've built an incredibly successful business and you probably wouldn't be able to find that much documentation of anything I've done because it all kind of lives in my head. And that's something that this year, as opposed to continuing to build...

Bonnie (59:03.662)
Mm-hmm.

Bonnie (59:10.881)
Yeah.

Iona (59:19.764)
or prove that I can throw spaghetti at the wall very successfully. I'm really trying to slow down enough to create a bit more structure of documenting things or planning things out a little bit more. And it feels really challenging for me because it's, there's all the stuff that comes up. I'm not good at this. I'm disorganized. I'm a mess. I don't do well with structure. And I want, like I'm excited to change those stories. I think I'll grow. I know.

Bonnie (59:23.178)
Mm.

Iona (59:48.692)
I'll grow more in the long term, if I can stay connected to that distant horizon or vision, then I would just continuing doing what I know I can already do really well.

Bonnie (59:53.524)
Mmm.

Bonnie (01:00:02.398)
Yeah. I hope that resonates big with me too, because I think there's, I am similar to you where I'm like, well, let's just try the thing. Like let's go out and do the thing. And where I know when there is perhaps like an idea of perfection or like an inclination towards perfection, I can feel it show up in different parts of what I do. But at the same time, I'm just throwing shit up there, which is like, because it sounds fun because I'm like, well, like it doesn't have to be amazing.

Like maybe this is already enough. Maybe like it doesn't have to be more. Maybe it doesn't have to be figured out before I press play. Maybe it doesn't like, so I kind of let myself just do that. And so I hear you on that. And also my vision for business and we can just jump right into business talk is like for this year too is, you're like, okay how do I refine what already is? All right, how do I work with what I've created and make it really sustainable? And can I see

Iona (01:00:44.396)
Mm-hmm.

Bonnie (01:01:02.026)
myself in the work days that I give myself, because as our own bosses here, and to speak to like people who might want to become their own bosses. The amount of work that I do is rather large and also because I have thrown enough things at the wall that they're sticking enough or that I'm interested enough in doing them, that they take different skill sets and different attention. So I work quite a bit and know that is like.

part of my own personality of like productivity and my relationship with identity and getting shit done. And in some ways, I think it's because it gives me an opportunity to connect with people, which feels important. But I think when I'm looking at this year too, I'm same as you where I'm just like, okay, how do we like take what is and organize it in a way that feels sustainable? So like what I can picture for my life moving forward,

Iona (01:01:41.97)
Yeah.

Bonnie (01:01:59.182)
not get burned out and what are those months I've been trying to pay attention to for in this past year and saying, okay, next summer, like this last summer felt harder in business-wise, summer does. And December felt hard to be like selling. I launched a couple new things and I'm like, I was like, why did I do that? Why did I do that to myself? So I'm like, this next year, we're going to set things up so that summer feels a little bit less stressful and we're not going to try to sell anything in December.

We're just gonna do that. So how else do I need to set things up so that's sustainable?

Iona (01:02:33.684)
And yeah, and I think when you've, like, when you've got stuff that's working, because I've arrived there too, I have Muck and Gold, which is my, like, foundational core offer. And then I have Luminous, which is a mentorship group for less women, but it really grows out of Muck and Gold. And these offers over the course of last year showed me that they work. Like the

Bonnie (01:03:03.371)
Mm.

Iona (01:03:03.764)
allowed me to create or bring in revenue into my business in a way that felt way better than the year before. And not that the work I did the year before was not work that I enjoyed. It was just a huge amount of private coaching, which I love. And also, if you've done any private coaching, we know it's a lot. And so last year was a commitment to one, laying down my body of work in Muckengold.

Bonnie (01:03:20.204)
Yeah.

Iona (01:03:32.412)
know what I want women who come into my world to teach. I know what will help them remember who the fuck they are. And it's what I teach in, in Muck and Gold. And then for those that want to be in more like more of a mentorship space with other women like them. And it's a slightly smaller group, but it's a year long commitment. Then there's a place for people, for women to come to that. And I launched Luminous last January and

It turned into like a six figure revenue stream in my business by itself. And it's already that for this year. And I say those numbers not because I think they're particularly impressive or I just, I like transparency, being able to realize that I could share my work in this way and be very supported by it, but also see how much women were loving it.

As the business owner, you have to be able to see, you have to be able to see that's working. And I can maybe not double down on it, but refine it, continue to nurture it, continue to tell people that it exists for the next time enrollment opens. I don't have to be creating brand new courses. I need to get better at inviting people into the experiences I've already created. And so even this week, I had a private podcast.

Bonnie (01:04:29.431)
Yeah.

Bonnie (01:04:34.538)
Mm-hmm.

Bonnie (01:04:39.808)
Yeah.

Iona (01:04:58.068)
that I have done for 18 months where I would record riffs every week and drop them in there. And I enjoyed it, but it wasn't making sense in the way that my business has refined over this last year. And that's where I think as a business owner, you have to be willing to kill things. Like you have to be able to know when it's time that it was, it's not that it was bad or wrong or it wasn't a great experience for people.

Bonnie (01:05:15.338)
Hmm

Iona (01:05:27.828)
but I don't have the capacity to do it well, or it doesn't feel like it makes sense with what is working. And making those decisions I've found can be really hard when you like things or want to do things, but then it's like, am I just giving myself more work to do? Which makes me less luminous in the places where I'm really shining or where it's really working for everyone involved, where it's not feeling like a drain or imbalanced or...

Bonnie (01:05:40.779)
Yeah.

Mmm.

Bonnie (01:05:54.706)
Mmm.

Iona (01:05:55.656)
you know, however it's burning, burning out, however it's feeling.

Bonnie (01:06:00.43)
Yeah, that's very well said. And now I'm feeling into my body of your word luminous when you just use this in a sense. Like I am cutting this out. Like what is making me feel less luminous? And so your program, your long is like, how do you become luminous? And luminous being this light, but it has a different texture of a word that feels like it's fun to say. It's like fun to fill in your mouth. And it's

Like it has a different feeling in your body. We're like, I'm going to be luminous. There's like a chest lifted. There's an openness in this. There is like a direction, a clarity in all of that. And where it does require, I know I said earlier, like how do we celebrate a no? How do we set something down and be like, thank you? And it's like the Marie Kondo of the experience in our life. Like, thank you. Like, let me just like be here with you and say like, thank you to this experience. Thank you to this opportunity. Thank you to.

Iona (01:06:39.751)
Mm-hmm.

Iona (01:06:48.24)
Yes.

Bonnie (01:06:56.682)
maybe the opportunity that came that you are turning down because now it's changed, it's like opened your mind in a way that maybe you wouldn't have even thought of something being possible, but now that there's this opportunity, but you say no, you're like, oh, but if that's possible, maybe something else is possible. And I think a no can look like so many different things so that you really are luminous in those yeses.

Iona (01:07:20.944)
Yes, because with your business, I think the great limiter is our own personal capacity. Because we are, I like to think we are capable beyond measure, but also we're human beings and therefore energy is a finite resource within us. We can't just not sleep or we can't just work all the time. That's not sustainable.

Bonnie (01:07:31.766)
Mm.

Bonnie (01:07:43.48)
Yeah.

Iona (01:07:50.48)
And then also if we're doing a million things and all of them are kind of working, that just fills up our capacity. And so, uh, a visual I sometimes use is, are my being a puddle right now? Or am I building deep wells? Like when I show up for an experience with my clients, I don't want to be a puddle. I want to be a deep well, like well resourced, got depth to me, can meet you there. I don't want to be splashing around in puddles.

Bonnie (01:07:57.838)
Mm-hmm.

Iona (01:08:20.356)
in the offers that I do or how I'm feeling when I show up for them. And that's required. Like that is the thing that I'm continually coaching myself around as a business owner is being able to notice when my capacity is feeling like I'm beginning to get stretched out and puddle like, and then I have to figure out why that is. And that's when I have to start saying no or.

Bonnie (01:08:35.25)
Mm-hmm.

Bonnie (01:08:47.583)
Mm.

Iona (01:08:47.844)
or push a timeline or pull a timeline or bench something or perhaps bring in support. I don't, I haven't used a lot of external support. I don't have a VA or anything like that for my business right now, but there are people that I'll pull in off the bench for, for certain tasks and being able to be self aware enough to know what that looks like. But again, when I look back on the, on the

many rings of the tree of brave thing right now, I can look back on the month and be like, oh, I felt like a well that month. And then, oh, there was that summer where I was a puddle. And all you can really do is be aware of that and try to refine moving forward. And it can be really scary. I don't know, I find it really scary sometimes to realize something and actually have to do something about it.

Bonnie (01:09:34.296)
Mm.

Bonnie (01:09:40.615)
Yeah.

Bonnie (01:09:44.974)
Yeah, fascinating. And this has my own will's turning of like, my own business audit to make, right? Like of my own time, like my time in business audit and what's working, what's not, what really makes sense in the holding. And some of it in, and honestly, sometimes I think of it for business and for people who are maybe just stepping in it and who might be like you and I, where we're like, okay, but what does structure look like? And...

how do I operate with structure? And where you figured out like every Monday you write an email, that is structure. And where do we give ourselves perhaps if we have brains that work in ways that we don't want a ton of structure, but where do you put structure that helps you stay accountable and move forward, but doesn't burn you out and evaluate like our relationship with this business lifestyle that we like have created.

Iona (01:10:37.793)
Right.

Bonnie (01:10:40.01)
Like it's a tricky thing and you do have to throw a bunch of stuff out there and then like figure it out. And sometimes you'll throw a little bit and be like, okay, cool. But is that like, like we're going to do it. I don't want to use the word wrong and put air quotes. We're going to do it wrong sometimes because we have to try something. You have to take action, but then you will like refine it and be like, okay. And that was cool.

Now you either say I'm like, well, this is good or it's good learning. That was good learning. Now we're gonna change it up. Ha ha ha.

Iona (01:11:08.8)
Yeah.

Right, that was a really good failure. Yes, yeah. With them. With the Monday notes. I actually started the Monday note around the same time where I was writing my book. So I was working full time as a creative director. That was my sort of my venture to get my green card in the US was through on like designing websites and agency. And I got my green card. And as soon as I got my green card, it kind of coincided with my

Bonnie (01:11:13.847)
Mm-hmm.

Iona (01:11:40.712)
rock bottom and so I was very much on the path of like, fuck corporate America, I'm going to do this. I want to work for myself. I want to have autonomy. I want to have ownership of my, but I had no idea what it was going to look like. But anyway, lockdown was really nice for me because my work went online. I no longer had to go into an office and I could hide more. And so I was, I started writing my book and something that,

book writing taught me is that the less conscious decisions you have to make about writing or not writing, the better. So I don't want what they taught me at this book writing workshop was you don't want to be waking up negotiating with yourself every day as to whether or not you're going to be writing. You just want to be writing. And so the only way that you be you're able to bypass the negotiation.

Bonnie (01:12:17.547)
Mm.

Iona (01:12:40.348)
is by taking the approach of it being a practice. This is what I do. I'm making it very easy for yourself to win. So I'm not showing up to write for four hours. I'm showing up to write for one hour every single morning and then I put it away. And then you'll see me there tomorrow in the exact same seat. My boyfriend, now husband, at the time, he was like, it was kind of like, what's that word? What was that movie?

40 first dates, like every day she's born again. So I would come down every single morning and you were there writing. And what I learned from that experience was we don't want to be negotiating. And if we can minimize the amount of muscle or conscious thought we have to have, we can allow something to settle into us. So it's now bones that we're resting on as opposed to muscle. Then I don't have to waste energy. It just...

Bonnie (01:13:06.927)
Oh.

Bonnie (01:13:23.01)
Hmm.

Iona (01:13:34.804)
happens. And I say that about the book writing process, because it was such a people are like, oh my god, that must have been so hard. Yeah, it was fucking hard. But the sitting down wasn't because I made it who I am. This is what I do. And I learned that, which I applied to the Monday Note. And then, to be honest, there's parts of my business where I'm like, why can I not fucking apply the same principle? I like say content creation, I've been wanting to create more wanting.

Bonnie (01:13:47.565)
Yeah.

Iona (01:14:04.52)
wishing and wanting to create more video content that I put out into the world. And I know the action I'm avoiding is the creation of the simple structure that is going to allow me to make it sink from a negotiation every time into just something that Iona does every week. And so I'm calling myself out because that's a big focus for me for this year is building identity around that. But

Bonnie (01:14:20.555)
Hmm.

Bonnie (01:14:29.464)
Yeah.

Iona (01:14:32.916)
That's how it happens. And again, I don't think it's magic, but it's intentional.

Bonnie (01:14:34.743)
Hmm.

Bonnie (01:14:39.346)
Yeah. And as an I am, like I am, I am going to write. Like, it's not like I'm going to, um, gosh, there's so many things like I want to get to also you're making video, but I want to touch first on like this, like the sitting down and the scheduling piece and how that worked for you and how like you wake up and do it. And like this, this lack of decision fatigue because I, I mean, I love, I fucking love.

Iona (01:14:42.976)
Yes, I'm author. Yes.

Bonnie (01:15:06.594)
talking with other, especially other women who are entrepreneurs and running their own things, because there's a language that we can speak that is, it's kind of like when I meet ex-Mormons, like people who used to be Mormon, like there's like a thing there. I'm like, oh, okay, like there's a culture that we're coming from that we don't have to explain. And so I think in that way of decision fatigue, and I do hold a lot of like little like strings of things, and the decision fatigue of like where I'm going, what I'm doing, what I need to respond to, and the amount of...

people that I'm trying to communicate with and the balls that I drop because of all those things and trying to figure out how to batch it on certain days to be like, okay, I have to do it on this day or I podcast on this day, right? And anything podcast related happens on that day. And I just wanna do like a shout out to those people who are parents because I have my kids week on, week off and the weeks with my kids are totally different weeks than the weeks on with them.

Iona (01:15:39.082)
Yes.

Bonnie (01:16:02.95)
And my business began the same month. Oh, that's not true. It's not true. That very first mentorship that I led happened the same month that my ex moved out. And it was already rolling. It had already been sold. Like then the dates just like end up being, that's the time. But I think that's fascinating because I suddenly had the space because I had split time with my kids that I could actually step into having my own.

Iona (01:16:15.916)
Mm-hmm.

Bonnie (01:16:29.462)
like there was like a little bit of freedom to move on the weeks I didn't have them. So for people who have kiddos full time with them, and especially if your kids are really young, it's gonna be a slower process. It's going to be harder in that way because you're gonna be answering to like kids and having to fix food and.

Iona (01:16:29.781)
Mm-hmm.

Bonnie (01:16:49.61)
like, wear my gloves and like, I forgot this and school is needs this tomorrow. Like there's so much in there. And so like the grace, I think in that, and, um, because we get stuck in transit, like when we have to transition from one thing to the next, we lose a lot of momentum and so having that focus time is like also figuring out when you can have that and getting your people on board. And if you are a parent or have like some responsibilities to be like,

Like my evening, I'm sorry, if you want to hang out with me, I agree. Like that would be great. And also like, how can I spend, like where, where do I grow myself in this? And, and anyway, so there's a bunch of things in this, but I'm like the decision fatigue, I feel that and like time and kids, there's a whole bunch in here.

Iona (01:17:33.108)
Yeah, like people pulling on you. So say women in Luminous, there's a lot of women in Luminous who have a full-time job, but they're in the process of creating their thing. And it's in varying stages. Some of them have been building on the site for a while. Some of them have gone now full into it. Some of them don't want a business and it's other Luminous things that we're working on, but like appreciation for that too. It's like when there's...

Bonnie (01:17:45.678)
Mm-hmm.

Iona (01:18:01.796)
I cannot stand when I see the, if you cared enough or were committed, you would quit your job and find out. It's like, no, you fucking wouldn't. You would, I mean, that might, I know that has worked. I don't want to say it never works. That can work. It's worked for people. And then for a lot of people, it's just not an option. You've got responsibilities, you've got commitments, or even within yourself. I know when I quit my job,

Bonnie (01:18:22.892)
Yeah.

Iona (01:18:31.664)
I was making just enough to scrape by and I immediately dysregulated my nervous system, like immediately experienced anxiety or anxious feelings for the first time that were totally foreign to me. And at least I had some kind of understanding of myself to know, or not myself, of breathwork and body to be able to coach and support myself through that. But there's a real reality to that. And you have to, you have to be real with yourself.

Bonnie (01:18:51.071)
Yeah.

Iona (01:19:01.096)
about and it's not about advocating for your limitations. It's not saying just because I have a job or just have kids, I can't do this. You fucking can. You and if you find a way, if you, if you believe that you will find a way you will, but it's going to look different if you're on the school run compared to. If you're not, or it's going to look different if you're still holding down responsibilities at a job that's paying your bills while you are learning how to send an email every.

Bonnie (01:19:08.649)
Mm-hmm.

Bonnie (01:19:20.363)
Yes.

Iona (01:19:29.956)
every week to your slowly growing mailing list. There's realities to that and there's no shame in it. There's no shame in you doing it your way and there's no shame in the timeline.

Bonnie (01:19:37.357)
Mm.

Bonnie (01:19:43.335)
Absolutely. And I mean, we both love what we do. And I think, so I love this conversation too because it's honest to be like, there is some work in this and there is a navigation and we love it. Like that's why we stay with it. That's why it's been years and we're like, oh, I just, I feel like I'm just starting. Like, oh, we're just starting.

Iona (01:20:05.464)
Oh yeah. Yeah.

Bonnie (01:20:07.51)
And so I'm excited to like continue to refine this and also to really offer, you know, because I think there's a lot of people who wanna step into this space, be like, how do I build it? So I love that you're supporting so many people in that. I work with some yoga folks who are trying to do this as well and try to be realistic about the timeframe of it, to be like, what else are you holding in your life? And some privilege pieces if they don't have to be this whole provider for themselves, like there's pieces of that, which that can be supportive as well. But it definitely is a privilege if you don't.

Iona (01:20:33.462)
Mm-hmm.

Bonnie (01:20:36.022)
have to work somewhere else or if you're not on a crunch of timeline, because it is going to take years. It's going to take years for you to build an audience, but also just to build the practice in your voice and what you want to share and how you want to share and what's sustainable. You're going to hit burnout times and you're going to hit times where you're like, that's amazing. There's going to be all of it. You get to write all of it.

Iona (01:20:43.56)
Yeah, and we'll take yours.

Iona (01:20:51.08)
Yes.

Iona (01:21:02.76)
Yeah. I know. Um, and there's nothing again, it's not, it's not being a Debbie downer. It's going to take years. Just buckle up. There's a reason why lottery winners end up broke. It's because they haven't built the capacity within themselves to hold the money, the identity of being a multimillionaire. And the same goes for

Bonnie (01:21:23.703)
Mm.

Iona (01:21:31.52)
business in all of its different forms. You don't, even though a small part of us would love to go viral and immediately have a thousand people clamoring to work with us, the reality is that would probably be a massively dysregulating and stressful and maybe overwhelming burnout experience. And there's actually something kind of beautiful about the plot, about the slowly push. That's when you were talking about Luminous.

Bonnie (01:21:56.194)
Mm-hmm.

Iona (01:22:01.228)
I describe it as like fuzzy, like glowing light with fuzzy edges. See if you're just always trying, not always, but more often than not, trying to push out the edges of what you believe or perceive as possible for you. Whether that is how honest you are in your writing or how often, like how consistently you share or how present you are for your coaching calls or, or in Voxer or however you do it or in your.

Bonnie (01:22:09.786)
Mmm.

Iona (01:22:29.724)
or in your flows, did you do that thing, even though you thought everyone in the class might think it was fucking weird, but you did it anyway. It's like slowly building that capacity is the only long-term way to owning the hell out of your voice and remembering who the fuck you are. You don't really want to be an overnight success. You do, but I'm telling you that you don't want that. You actually want to have to go through the process of claiming all of it,

Bonnie (01:22:46.944)
Mmm.

Bonnie (01:22:53.983)
Yeah.

Iona (01:22:58.892)
through the process of claiming all of it, it is a lot fucking harder for it to be pulled out of your grass, because you own it, it's yours. Nothing's been given, nothing's been handed to you. Yes, it's amazing when bolts of lightning strike us and gems fall out the sky, and suddenly someone pays you in full more money than you ever, that you like, I didn't even know I could accept this amount of money into my bank account. All of that will happen too, but a lot of it is.

Bonnie (01:23:04.994)
Mmm.

Bonnie (01:23:08.875)
Yeah.

Bonnie (01:23:17.085)
Mm-hmm.

Bonnie (01:23:23.704)
Yeah.

Iona (01:23:28.332)
Chip, Chip and plod, plod. And you have to fucking love that because you're going to be that woman more than you're not that woman.

Bonnie (01:23:37.887)
Mmm.

Bonnie (01:23:43.046)
And it's so worth celebrating, like all of those versions.

I love this, the way that you've described Luminous as you have this vision of my being with fuzzy edges and this fuzzy edges being that it's like it's zigzaggy. Like it is the pushing out. It is like that growing space. I love that. I love that visual. Because otherwise it's a hard line. Here's the shape of me. But if it's me with fuzzy edges like.

Where am I going to grow next and what potential do I have? And I'm not closing myself off of like this open palm experience with the world.

Iona (01:24:25.512)
Mm, yes, yeah. Palm open, stay open. I don't know if you've read The Untethered Soul.

Bonnie (01:24:32.815)
I actually have not. Yeah.

Iona (01:24:34.556)
Okay, it's one of those books that I is wildly repetitive, but I love it. And I recommend it to anyone. I don't recommend a lot of books because I think we do too much reading and not enough practicing, but it is one of those books that I really enjoy. And the simple but profound thing that he says early on and then repeats many times is, can you be open? Like, can you find a way to stay open, open to it all?

Bonnie (01:25:04.238)
Hmm.

Iona (01:25:04.532)
Like let life touch you and let life touch you and it might hurt. Let life touch you and it might set your heart on fire. Like let life touch you and it might feel boring, but can you stay open, open to that experience and safe and open to people. I had an experience the other, maybe we've probably all had this when we've worked with clients, but this wasn't in a client capacity, but I was at the jujitsu gym and a new guy showed up.

And I immediately, viscerally was like, I don't like you. I just could feel myself closing off to him. And I was like, I checked him with myself. It's like, I'm not gonna say you have to find a way to open this if you're feeling like, he's not a good person or something like that. But I think it's just this kind of personality is a wee bit triggering for you. These people that come in like loud and confident, whereas I'm more someone that grows.

Bonnie (01:25:34.946)
Hmm.

Bonnie (01:25:57.644)
Mmm.

Iona (01:26:01.796)
into an experience, I'm quite introverted and then I grow into an experience or can be very selectively outgoing. And so for a month my commitment was I'm going to be open to him. I'm going to say yes if he asks to roll. I'm going to try to talk to him afterwards. I'm going to try to open my heart and let life touch my, like let life touch me. And so it ended up like

Bonnie (01:26:14.865)
Mmm.

Bonnie (01:26:22.76)
Mmm.

Iona (01:26:29.34)
He's now a really good friend of mine and I really enjoy his company. I see him pretty much every morning and it's a, it's like a beautiful thing to see, oh, I could have just closed down in this context to somebody, but it can be to opportunities, it could be invitations. Can you just try like practice, practice opening, like practice staying open? I am.

Bonnie (01:26:40.932)
Mm.

Iona (01:26:58.24)
Whenever I feel, and that's a visceral thing, like within your body that you can feel, like the closing and the opening. I try to check in with myself with that often, like daily. It's like, how closed off are we feeling? Do we need a bit more opening? And also sometimes I'm closed off and I need to be. And then I'll just go.

Bonnie (01:27:12.599)
Mmm.

Iona (01:27:21.748)
Fuck off. Fuck off and be in my own energy for a while.

Bonnie (01:27:22.453)
Yeah.

Yeah, when I like that as a visceral sort of thing is like open closed where we might have like an instant reaction to something. And then sometimes perhaps in decision land, we can be like, oh, when I am trying to figure out where to go, which one feels open and closed to me? And is it because I have a lack of information that it's not open? Or is this also my body, like, how can I tap into my body's knowing of

Iona (01:27:50.101)
Yeah.

Bonnie (01:27:55.246)
what I can hold and that that's not something that is something I can support this time or is the right timing for this. Yeah, yeah. I love that. I love this openness and even in this very story of like a certain person who maybe, because I think we all have people like that. We're like, what is with, like, why is it all like sparking an interesting sort of reaction?

for this personality and I think we all have that and I think it is this, like how can we stay open? What can I learn here? And it really is from the center of our heart and I like to think about being brokenhearted, right? And sitting in grief and in loss when it especially comes to matters of like the heart of love and there is a...

Iona (01:28:32.032)
Mm-hmm.

Iona (01:28:48.739)
Mm-hmm.

Bonnie (01:28:50.978)
feeling of being broken. Like your heart is broken. Like you can feel it in your chest, which is like one of the ways that I talk about even like this visceral, like how does the body talk? How can we pay attention? And heartbreak is one that a lot of us have felt or, you know, and it's many various ways and words, but the word, and I remember feeling this at one point in time, couple of years ago, and thinking of the word broken.

where I'm like, this feels broken. And when your heart is hurting, your shoulders are rounded, there's a protection you want to hold with your heart. And I thought of the word broke and I separated it from broken. So I went broke and in. And I was like, but what if, like how can I reframe this for myself? How can I help myself carry this forward, right? And I was like, well, what if instead, if it's a broke in, like an in word,

Like what if it's broke open? And thinking of like especially this front facing part of ourselves, like all of us, like if you're alive, you have a heart. Like how can you stay broke open in a way of all the things that are here for us to experience? And it can be really painful and it's gonna like require a lot of mock awareness, right?

to find this luminous space for ourselves. And it's not, there's never a check box saying like, oh, I made it, I'm done. But it is this openness to walk in the world with.

Iona (01:30:28.028)
Yeah, those moments in your life where they're very alive with pain and it can, it could be a heartbreak or it could be coming to just know something or I won't put heartbreak. Well, do you know what it was a heartbreak, breaking heart, dislocating my knee and feeling like two hours before my flight home to see my nieces in Scotland for the first time in 18 months.

Bonnie (01:30:49.972)
Mm.

Iona (01:30:57.872)
making that decision that I was going to get on the plane and then the whole feeling of what I thought Christmas was going to be like and then really being, I mean I was there but I was in pain, I was grieving, I was grieving the holiday I thought I was going to have and the one that was presented to me instead and then the whole like oh my god I'm gonna have to rehab, all of that. And there's always this moment in, and same like five years ago where you know I'm feeling

totally broke up and on the floor of my life feeling like I like I'm crazy around food. I can't be around it. I binge almost spontaneously as soon as I try not to just so out of out of control it felt of myself and also like these moments you always I think you always arrive somewhere where you're like fuck if I let this change me it is going to change me I will never be the same again.

And it's going to be the making of me. In Muck and Gold, I talk a lot. It's like the muck will turn to gold if you allow it, if you allow the pain to change you, if you allow this moment to change you, if you don't resist it, if you don't bench it for another time where it just keeps presenting itself to you until you learn that if you let it change you, it will be, it will be beautiful. And you kind of, it takes...

Bonnie (01:31:58.979)
Hmm.

Iona (01:32:24.724)
to be able to see that part, because sometimes you just have to be in the muck and the grief and you can't rush it. But see, once you start getting some glimmers of, I think this can, I'm going to be okay, more than okay, I'm going to be more. You really have to like grab on and be brave to whatever that, whatever that it is, because these moments are, yeah, they can really change us.

Bonnie (01:32:38.079)
Yeah.

Bonnie (01:32:52.026)
Mmm.

I love that. I think that's the perfect ending. Mocking gold, everybody go. In the show notes.

Iona (01:33:02.643)
We're doing it live in March.

Bonnie (01:33:05.119)
Alive in March.

Iona (01:33:07.924)
I'm doing, yeah, so I've got my first, well, I've taught live in person before, but this is my first retreat that I'm hosting at the start of February, which is in Boston, and then, yeah, we're into lunch for Muck and Gold, which we'll be running in March online.

Bonnie (01:33:16.887)
Mm-hmm.

Bonnie (01:33:26.958)
Perfect. Okay. Well, when this is shared, this episode is shared, then people will still be able to sign up for March. So if this hasn't sold you already, if you don't want to like take the things and transform them and I love it, like, and let them change you, right? Like what if we don't resist it? What if we let it change us? Like, I love that. I love that.

Thank you so much for this time today. Thank you for sharing like your wisdom, like these small little nuggets. Like I think the introspection I already have around like, okay, what am I doing? And how do I even wanna like move forward with things? Like I feel like I'm walking away better because of this conversation. So thank you.

Iona (01:34:07.92)
Me too. I was, I think I said to you, I was so ill at the start of the, you know, London buses coming through, so I got knee and then throat, could barely speak, and then something, some other cold flu thing. And then I got a DM from you and I always am excited when I get, it's not that we chat all the time, but you know, we've chatted on and off for, I don't know, nine months or so now. And you invited me here and...

Bonnie (01:34:31.176)
Mm-hmm.

Iona (01:34:38.172)
I was, it was, it was such an easy, such an easy yes. I was so looking forward to this. So thank you for, thank you for inviting me. I loved it.

Bonnie (01:34:40.738)
Mmm.

Bonnie (01:34:46.518)
Yeah. Well, you're very welcome. This is so valuable. This is so valuable. I think there's such a soft holding that you do. And the invitation here. So everybody who's listening, go check out Iona, go find the links in the show notes, find her on the gram. See her start to share videos, which you've heard is like the growth space.

Iona (01:35:12.697)
Thank you. Thank you. I'm always doing this telling people what I'm going to do, put myself on a on a hook. Thank you. I will try to I will try to live up to it. I will try I will. I will live up to my promise.

Bonnie (01:35:13.431)
We're gonna talk about more about that after we sign off. But.

Bonnie (01:35:27.944)
Mm. Oh. Yeah.

Bonnie (01:35:33.762)
we're gonna wiggle into it. Yeah. Okay, everybody. Thank you for your attention and time here today and for the ways that shows up in this moment, but like in all the different areas of life. Thank you for gifting it as part of this conversation. We'd love to hear from you. Please reach out to either one of us, share what you've learned about this podcast, share it with those people who you love, that you want to see be luminous in their lives too.

Iona (01:35:35.688)
Yeah.